Fugues Of The Past 100 Years

[listener]

The close of BRTTEN's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, and WEINBERGER's Schwanda (Polka and Fugue)

[DaveF]

Great choices, DaveF. I don't see you around here much, but hope you post more in the future.

Kind of you to say so - I'm more of an occasional visitor and lurker, except when a topic such as this engages my butterfly brain.

Interesting! I'm interested in why so few contemporary composers have an interest.

Perhaps the typical fugue reflects a world of order and harmony (the non-musical kind) which is alien to the contemporary mind.  But the best of the 20th century (here comes Nielsen again) can use the emotional legacy of the fugue to show us what we've lost: the two in the first movement of no.6 are both short-lived attempts to establish some sort of order amid the nightmarish cackling and screeching that makes up most of that movement.

[EigenUser]

The close of BRTTEN's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, and WEINBERGER's Schwanda (Polka and Fugue)

YES! I love the Britten YPG2theO! A true "concerto for everybody"! I played it in college freshman year and it was a blast.

There is a sort-of fugue in Stravinsky's Agon -- the start of the last part "Four Trios". I'm not sure if it is technically a fugue or not, so I've been calling it a "mock-fugue".

[The new erato]

Kind of you to say so - I'm more of an occasional visitor and lurker, except when a topic such as this engages my butterfly brain.

Perhaps the typical fugue reflects a world of order and harmony (the non-musical kind) which is alien to the contemporary mind.  But the best of the 20th century (here comes Nielsen again) can use the emotional legacy of the fugue to show us what we've lost: the two in the first movement of no.6 are both short-lived attempts to establish some sort of order amid the nightmarish cackling and screeching that makes up most of that movement.

You also got the fugue attempt that goes completely astray in no 3 (IIRC), thus firther emphazising the point that the order of the fugue is no longer with us.

[Karl Henning]

"With some liberties" could apply to any of Bach's fugues, for that matter.

How "strict" ever got to be applied to music is beyond me.

Or rather, how it came to be a value judgment!

If we take the C Major fugue from Book I of WTC, practically every measure makes use of the head-motif.  So I readily understand using "strict" in this context, simply to underscore the economy of musical means.  Of course, it does not mean that fugues must hew to that standard of execution, or they are somehow "wanting."

[Karl Henning]

Thread duty:  The MS. sketch of a fugato in my Cello Sonatina.

[Fagotterdämmerung]

More interesting selections from all.

If we take the C Major fugue from Book I of WTC, practically every measure makes use of the head-motif.  So I readily understand using "strict" in this context, simply to underscore the economy of musical means.  Of course, it does not mean that fugues must hew to that standard of execution, or they are somehow "wanting."

Fugatos end up in the fughetto, it seems...

[some guy]

Perhaps the typical fugue reflects a world of order and harmony (the non-musical kind) which is alien to the contemporary mind.

Perhaps the typical fugue reflects the futility of a closed social system, people chasing and fleeing (which are the two words "fugue" is related to) each other round and round in an endless circle. Or perhaps the typical fugue reflects the glories of being a hamster, the state of safety and sameness that is the proper life for peasants.

Hey, it could happen.

But seriously, David, did you not see any of the posts that preceded your screed naming twentieth century fugues, including ones by people like Boulez and Stockhause and Lutoslawski, for crying out loud. I don't have any figures, but I'd be willing to guess that there have been more fugues in twentieth century music than in nineteenth century music. So much for "the contemporary mind," if that is true. But even if it's not, have you really thought about that phrase, "the contemporary mind"? Really. What could that possibly be? Why, you're contemporary, right? You're alive today. So you have a contemporary mind that finds fugues alien, too? But if that's so, why the screed?

It's a dilemma, for sure. And all those fugues from earlier centuries, centuries noted for wars and pestilences and social unrest and upheaval--well, duly noted, but of course to know these things you have to be able to read the notes. (And yes, I am very proud of those puns, easy though they were.) 

But the best of the 20th century (here comes Nielsen again) can use the emotional legacy of the fugue to show us what we've lost: the two in the first movement of no.6 are both short-lived attempts to establish some sort of order amid the nightmarish cackling and screeching that makes up most of that movement.

Yes. All that stuff we've lost. The Black Death. The Inquisition. The Wars of the Roses. The Anglo-Spanish, Dutch-Portugese, Russo-Swedish wars. The Thirty Years War. And peasant uprisings galore, possibly out of a desire to get out of those fugal, hamster cages.

As for Nielsen's splendid sixth symphony, the culmination (if you would bother to listen to all of his other music, that is, without turning it into some kind of obscene narrative for anti-modernism) of everything he'd been working at his entire career, his crowning achievement, musically--well, I don't think I have ever seen such an unfair traducing of it as you've perpetrated with your "nightmarish cackling and screeching" crack. That delightful sonic adventure is "nightmarish cackling and screeching"? I beg to differ.

And I beg you to get out more.

Of course, if you do, you may find that the world outside the hamster cage does seem a bit bewildering at first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_5q65ZIFyQ

It's nice out here, though. Really. Quite a lot of fun. Not altogether safe, granted, but I question the safety of locking yourself away in a cage with a wheel in it to run on. Get out and do your running in a nice park, why not? Meet some other nice ex-hamsters. Do ya good!

[Brian]

Wow, I thought he was trying to agree with you, or offer an explanation for your idea.

So why do YOU think that contemporary composers don't use fugues as much?

[amw]

The fugue is an inherently tonal method of organising music. In a post-tonal musical world, those who are interested in imitative counterpoint may search for elaborate analogues to the tonal system in which to ground a fugue, or may instead focus on canons, which is probably more common.

Two composers who work almost exclusively with canons are Aldo Clementi and Rytis Mažulis. Other notable examples include Dick Raaijmakers' Five Canons (for fixed media), Brice Pauset's Eight Canons (for harpsichord), Ferneyhough's The Doctrine of Similarity (13 canons for mixed chorus) etc.

So the idea of fugue is still quite popular I think, it's tonality that contemporary composers are less interested in. (And those composers who are interested in some kind of tonal system, whether traditional, expanded or microtonal, often are influenced to some degree by minimalism, to which concepts like fugue and sonata are alien.)

[DaveF]

Wow

Thank you, Brian - my thoughts precisely.

I'd be willing to guess that there have been more fugues in twentieth century music than in nineteenth century music.

I'm sure that's right - although perhaps not more than in eighteenth century music.

if you would bother to listen to all of [Nielsen's] other music

First encountered it over 40 years ago and been listening to it ever since.  Probably heard just about every note he ever wrote, and loved nearly all of it.

As for Nielsen's splendid sixth symphony, the culmination of everything he'd been working at his entire career, his crowning achievement...

One of his crowning achievements, I quite agree - my top 5 would also include Commotio, the second Violin sonata, the Suite, Op.45 and the Clarinet concerto.

And I beg you to get out more.

My dear fellow, I would love to, but as a single parent of an 11-year-old, it ain't always easy.  Coincidentally, my local orchestra is including something called Helios in a concert in a few weeks - should I bother getting out to that?  Is it any good?

[some guy]

Wow, I thought he was trying to agree with you, or offer an explanation for your idea.

So why do YOU think that contemporary composers don't use fugues as much?

Brian, I don't care. This was your interest, not mine. I was interested in something else. Don't change the subject and then try to put me on the spot for not addressing the new subject. That's just silly.

Dave, I like the Helios overture. I won't go any farther than that. But since you already know it well and know what you think of it, I'll just sink back down to the bottom of the stream, here, and ignore all these unattractive baits.

I had two kids to bring up as a single dad. Best time of my life. I didn't get out much, either, but that was OK. And my "getting out" advice to you was figurative language, not literal, so you're good to go.

[DaveF]

I'll just sink back down to the bottom of the stream, here, and ignore all these unattractive baits.

Not really intending to bait you, old boy - well, not much, and only in the heat of the moment.  Your willingness to rush to Nielsen's defence over a perceived unjust criticism proclaims you a true Nielsenite.

[some guy]

Well, at least I know true praise when I see it.

I took to Nielsen immediately. My first album was the Nonesuch LP with Horenstein, one of the three or four albums I ever bought for the cover. The music blew me away. And I was out in the stores immediately, trying to find more of this spectacular stuff.

I looked for several years for a copy of the sixth (with Ormandy, still my favorite) before I found two in a store. I only bought one of them, but I was very tempted to get both.

[RJR]

Well, at least I know true praise when I see it.

I took to Nielsen immediately. My first album was the Nonesuch LP with Horenstein, one of the three or four albums I ever bought for the cover. The music blew me away. And I was out in the stores immediately, trying to find more of this spectacular stuff.

I looked for several years for a copy of the sixth (with Ormandy, still my favorite) before I found two in a store. I only bought one of them, but I was very tempted to get both.

The music that blew you away was Nielsen's Fifth Symphony. The solo drum work at the end of the first movement was mind blowing.   

[listener]

and for variety, the (Gesprochene Musik)  Geographical Fugue by TOCH for speaking chorus

[EigenUser]

Guys, I just realized that we're missing a great one -- the third movement of Ives' Symphony No. 4!

[not edward]

Guys, I just realized that we're missing a great one -- the third movement of Ives' Symphony No. 4!

If we're to be pedantic, it's an arrangement of a movement from the First Quartet, which was written in the 19th century.

[some guy]

The music that blew you away was Nielsen's Fifth Symphony. The solo drum work at the end of the first movement was mind blowing.

I couldn't figure out this post of yours. Then I reread mine.

Ah. It does give off the suggestion that it was the sixth that blew me away.

No. I was giving two different anecdotes, one about the fifth with Horenstein and one about the sixth with Ormandy. It does indeed look like I'm giving only one, though, doesn't it?

Mea culpa.

[North Star]

The Ligeti Requiem's Kyrie doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet.