Krzysztof Penderecki (1933-2020)

Started by Maciek, April 12, 2007, 03:43:03 PM

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Mirror Image

#461
Some interesting interviews with Penderecki:

https://www.youtube.com/v/atz2MODHe5Q

https://www.youtube.com/v/jRA4iXo4Bu4

And a fantastic analysis video from Samuel Andreyev about Penderecki's Capriccio for Violin and Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/8ptYtwggNRg


kyjo

Not to rain on John's parade, but Penderecki is one of those composers I just can't get on board with. :-\ Whenever I listen to one of his works (be it early or late), I usually end up turning it off halfway through. To me, so much of it just sounds grey and depressing without the imaginative wit of Schnittke or the "heart" of Pettersson (to name two rather similar composers stylistically).
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

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Quote from: kyjo on August 26, 2021, 03:05:14 PM
Not to rain on John's parade, but Penderecki is one of those composers I just can't get on board with. :-\ Whenever I listen to one of his works (be it early or late), I usually end up turning it off halfway through. To me, so much of it just sounds grey and depressing without the imaginative wit of Schnittke or the "heart" of Pettersson (to name two rather similar composers stylistically).

That's fine. I actually shared a similar outlook at one point (you can go back and see my dismissal of his music many pages back on this very thread), but then something just happened to where I was finally able to appreciate his idiom. I can't pinpoint it exactly, but I suppose a lot of it is my developing love for post-WWII avant-garde composers like Ligeti or Boulez. They kind of helped open that door, but when I finally understood Gubaidulina is when I understood Penderecki. This is a recent development in my own listening and I think a lot of stems from my own personal misery and depression. I don't know, I just find it cathartic to listen to these composers like Penderecki, Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Pettersson et. al. It helps me cope with a world in which I've remained an outsider all of my life, so this outsider mentality I find in the afore mentioned composers resonates deeply with me.

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#464
A follow-up to my previous message: not all of Penderecki's music is 'doom and gloom'. Give a listen to the Sinfoniettas, the Adagietto from Paradise Lost, A sea of dreams did breathe on me..., the Horn Concerto, Three Pieces in the Old Style, Symphony No. 6 et. al. I also want to say I think Kyle is forgetting about the bleak, withdrawn styles that Schnittke and Pettersson adapted in their later years. A prime example are Schnittke's last symphonies --- these are desolate, bleak works shrouded in shadow with the bold exception of the last movement of his 8th symphony where it sounds like some kind of ascension into the heavens. Also, Pettersson's style became more and more bleak and anguished as time wore on, especially after the middle trilogy of symphonies: the 6th, 7th and 8th. All three of these composers wrote dark, disturbed music, but I'd never call it depressing, because I don't hear the music that way. Another quick note and what do we make of Shostakovich's later style? How about Weinberg's? These composers don't exactly bask in the sunshine either. :)

I think Kyle will begin to enjoy Penderecki as he gains more listening experience, because I truly believe that if I can have a breakthrough with this composer, then anything is possible!

relm1

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 27, 2021, 05:08:01 AM
A follow-up to my previous message: not all of Penderecki's music is 'doom and gloom'. Give a listen to the Sinfoniettas, the Adagietto from Paradise Lost, A sea of dreams did breathe on me..., the Horn Concerto, Three Pieces in the Old Style, Symphony No. 6 et. al. I also want to say I think Kyle is forgetting about the bleak, withdrawn styles that Schnittke and Pettersson adapted in their later years. A prime example are Schnittke's last symphonies --- these are desolate, bleak works shrouded in shadow with the bold exception of the last movement of his 8th symphony where it sounds like some kind of ascension into the heavens. Also, Pettersson's style became more and more bleak and anguished as time wore on, especially after the middle trilogy of symphonies: the 6th, 7th and 8th. All three of these composers wrote dark, disturbed music, but I'd never call it depressing, because I don't hear the music that way. Another quick note and what do we make of Shostakovich's later style? How about Weinberg's? These composers don't exactly bask in the sunshine either. :)

I think Kyle will begin to enjoy Penderecki as he gains more listening experience, because I truly believe that if I can have a breakthrough with this composer, then anything is possible!

Piano concerto from 2001/2, rev 2007 is a rather exuberant piece and while dramatic, I wouldn't consider it gloom and doom.  I think No. 6 is an example of beauty and almost serenity - but I'm very confused about where to place that since I think it was one of his last works but might have been conceived a decade or two earlier.  Generally a gloomy composer in his late style with notable exceptions. 

Mirror Image

Quote from: relm1 on August 27, 2021, 05:46:47 AM
Piano concerto from 2001/2, rev 2007 is a rather exuberant piece and while dramatic, I wouldn't consider it gloom and doom.  I think No. 6 is an example of beauty and almost serenity - but I'm very confused about where to place that since I think it was one of his last works but might have been conceived a decade or two earlier.  Generally a gloomy composer in his late style with notable exceptions.

Ah, yes! I had forgotten about the Piano Concerto, "Resurrection". A fine piece for sure. Another point I'd like to make is a listener can't let the surface of the music be their only determining factor when evaluating or trying to appreciate a composer. Penderecki, on the outside, is like a tree covered in razor wire, but underneath that exterior lies a beating heart and so much life. I suppose anyone coming from a heavy diet of say Milhaud or Mendelssohn (two composers who exhibit a fair amount of exuberance in their music for the most part) would be put off by Penderecki, but, at the same time, would it be fair for me to say that I can barely listen to Milhaud or Mendelssohn because there is a perceived lack of depth in their sunlit music? I think all kinds of music can be appreciated as long as one doesn't get caught up listening to what's on the surface, but try to find a deeper meaning in the music.

vers la flamme

#467
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 26, 2021, 08:14:00 PMI just find it cathartic to listen to these composers like Penderecki, Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Pettersson et. al. It helps me cope with a world in which I've remained an outsider all of my life, so this outsider mentality I find in the afore mentioned composers resonates deeply with me.

Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.

staxomega

#468
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 27, 2021, 01:22:09 PM
Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.

Great soundtrack and film. One of those rare films I wanted to watch again immediately afterward to see if I could pick up on all the clues leading up to what we find out.

Edit: I have Penderecki conducting the symphonies on Dux. Is there anything further to be gained with the Antoni Wit cycle?

DavidW

Quote from: vers la flamme on August 27, 2021, 01:22:09 PM
Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.

The first symphony is my second favorite, but it is more challenging than his other symphonies.

bhodges

With all the Penderecki discussion, just wanted to put in a good word for his Song of Cherubim, which I discovered on this spectacular Dale Warland Singers recording years ago. I see there are a number of other versions (including tasty-looking ones from the Warsaw Philharmonic Choir and Tapiola Chamber Choir), but this one—with great sonics and pristine reverence—is pretty fine.

https://www.amazon.com/December-Stillness-Dale-Warland-Singers/dp/B000003M4S

--Bruce


VonStupp

Quote from: Brewski on August 27, 2021, 03:44:29 PM
With all the Penderecki discussion, just wanted to put in a good word for his Song of Cherubim, which I discovered on this spectacular Dale Warland Singers recording years ago. I see there are a number of other versions (including tasty-looking ones from the Warsaw Philharmonic Choir and Tapiola Chamber Choir), but this one—with great sonics and pristine reverence—is pretty fine.

https://www.amazon.com/December-Stillness-Dale-Warland-Singers/dp/B000003M4S

--Bruce

Dale Warland's retirement some 20 years ago was a big hit to the region where I live, nonetheless those who love the larger American chamber choir sound. All of those recordings are winners and I treasure them greatly.
"All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff."

Symphonic Addict

#472
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 27, 2021, 05:08:01 AM
A follow-up to my previous message: not all of Penderecki's music is 'doom and gloom'. Give a listen to the Sinfoniettas, the Adagietto from Paradise Lost, A sea of dreams did breathe on me..., the Horn Concerto, Three Pieces in the Old Style, Symphony No. 6 et. al. I also want to say I think Kyle is forgetting about the bleak, withdrawn styles that Schnittke and Pettersson adapted in their later years. A prime example are Schnittke's last symphonies --- these are desolate, bleak works shrouded in shadow with the bold exception of the last movement of his 8th symphony where it sounds like some kind of ascension into the heavens. Also, Pettersson's style became more and more bleak and anguished as time wore on, especially after the middle trilogy of symphonies: the 6th, 7th and 8th. All three of these composers wrote dark, disturbed music, but I'd never call it depressing, because I don't hear the music that way. Another quick note and what do we make of Shostakovich's later style? How about Weinberg's? These composers don't exactly bask in the sunshine either. :)

I don't hear a lot of Penderecki these days, but he's a firm favorite of mine. I find his aesthetics, coming from nightmarish avant-garde stuff to more-subdued-and-lyrical conceptions, truly captivating. I know more works of his first phase. The sonorities and effects there don't fail to open my mouth because of the astonishment they provoke on me. Maybe he's not a composer for everybody, but I'm glad many of his compositions do resonate with me too.
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

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#473
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 27, 2021, 01:22:09 PM
Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.

Thanks. The 5th which is subtitled "Korean" and I'm not going to lie, but this one blew me away, but I need to hear another performance of it I think. I listened to the Penderecki-led performance on Dux which was excellent, but when I receive the Wit recording, I'll definitely be giving it spin. There was one section in this symphony that I find just incredible, but I can't remember exactly where it was. It actually almost had a Isang Yun sound to it --- pretty cool. I don't know the 3rd and I haven't heard the 8th symphony, which I believe is a song-symphony and the 7th (Seven Gates of Jerusalem) is a choral symphony. I also own that 2-CD EMI set (but the reissue of it as mine is actually Warner Classics). The first symphony is super fun! Experimental and in-your-face. It makes a nice contrast with the 2nd ("Christmas Symphony"), which is another one I need to revisit. Anyway, I'd check out the 4th and 5th as I rather enjoyed these works.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 27, 2021, 06:55:06 PM
I don't hear a lot of Penderecki these days, but he's a firm favorite of mine. I find his aesthetics, coming from nightmarish avant-garde stuff to more-subdued-and-lyrical conceptions. I know more works of his first phase. The sonorities and effects there don't fail to open my mouth because of the astonishment it provokes on me. Maybe he's not a composer for everybody, but I'm glad much of his compositions do resonate with me too.

Yeah, those early avant-garde works are astonishing in their sonorities and the way there's always some kind of emotional outline in those works. His change of style to a more Neo-Romantic sound-world has also won me over. The Horn Concerto, "Winterreise" I listened to a few days ago was really something. I'm not sure if you've heard this work, but do check it out!

Brahmsian

#475
Quote from: Brewski on February 10, 2021, 07:44:08 AM
Just found this today: the 1969 film, directed by Rolf Liebermann for German television. Is there no end to what you can find on YouTube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zPEq48Sxg

--Bruce

Just because of the recent discussion and interest in Penderecki, I am reposting Bruce's link to the visceral, captivating, made for TV production of Penderecki's opera The Devils of Loudun

Not being so much into opera myself, however, I found this to be terrific and recommend fans of the composer to check this out, especially if you are a fan of his early avant-garde style.  :)

Brahmsian

I am grateful to John (MI) for his gift of several Naxos Penderecki recordings years ago, which helped me discover his music.

I see that John has since repurchased several of those recordings again recently.  :D

Mirror Image

#477
Quote from: OrchestralNut on August 28, 2021, 03:14:36 AM
I am grateful to John (MI) for his gift of several Naxos Penderecki recordings years ago, which helped me discover his music.

I see that John has since repurchased several of those recordings again recently.  :D

Yep, it's Schnittke all over again! :P Oh and as I've said many times before, any time I can give someone the gift of music is a wonderful thing. :)

Mirror Image

#478
Quote from: OrchestralNut on August 28, 2021, 03:11:53 AM
Just because of the recent discussion and interest in Penderecki, I am reposting Bruce's link to the visceral, captivating, made for TV production of Penderecki's opera The Devils of Loudun

Not being so much into opera myself, however, I found this to be terrific and recommend fans of the composer to check this out, especially if you are a fan of his early avant-garde style.  :)

The problem is if someone wants to buy a recording of it all there is is that Philips recording, which is OOP, rare and if you do find one, incredibly expensive. I hope Decca reissues it, but I'm not going to hold my breath. ;)

bhodges

Quote from: VonStupp on August 27, 2021, 04:01:15 PM
Dale Warland's retirement some 20 years ago was a big hit to the region where I live, nonetheless those who love the larger American chamber choir sound. All of those recordings are winners and I treasure them greatly.

So happy that you know of Warland, who really was one of the country's great choral conductors. And I totally agree about his body of work -- all fantastic recordings, with superb musicians.

--Bruce