Author Topic: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)  (Read 101839 times)

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Offline OrchestralNut

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #660 on: October 12, 2021, 03:54:06 AM »
Very cool. 8) Looks like a nice recording. The CD Accord label is, of course, fantastic and I've never bought a bad recording on their label. Looks like I may have to do some digging around to see if I can obtain a copy.

Looks like there is a brand new copy on eBay for about $37 cdn plus shipping.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #661 on: October 12, 2021, 06:22:01 AM »
Looks like there is a brand new copy on eBay for about $37 cdn plus shipping.

8) Thanks, Ray, but I've decided not to buy it and find a copy of The Devils of Loudun instead, which will prove easier said than done. ;)
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Offline OrchestralNut

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #662 on: October 12, 2021, 06:24:01 AM »
8) Thanks, Ray, but I've decided not to buy it and find a copy of The Devils of Loudun instead, which will prove easier said than done. ;)

If you find two copies of The Devils of Loudun, please get it for me or let me know, as that is the one composition I really, really want!! 🙂

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #663 on: October 12, 2021, 06:25:18 AM »
If you find two copies of The Devils of Loudun, please get it for me or let me know, as that is the one composition I really, really want!! 🙂

Will do, Ray. 8)
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Offline OrchestralNut

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #664 on: October 12, 2021, 06:25:47 AM »
Will do, Ray. 8)

I don't want to get into a bidding war with you, John.  ;) ;D

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #665 on: October 15, 2021, 09:42:28 AM »
I have a recording of Paradise Lost, I don't remember where I got it from or when, but (like pretty much all his work from the mid 1970s onward) I found it turgid, monotonous and unoriginal. The Devils of Loudun is a different matter, its succession of brief scenes matched by the kind of collage-like musical form he had made his own at that time, its musical idiom perfectly matched to its dramatic material. I'm surprised to see so much admiration here for his later work. To me it seems so dull and unvaried (as is perhaps evidenced by the way some of the concertos can be so easily arranged for different solo instruments).

Offline Maestro267

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #666 on: October 15, 2021, 10:38:37 AM »
Don't be that surprised. There's a reason it's approachable. We like tonal music here.

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #667 on: October 15, 2021, 01:55:24 PM »
Indeed pretty much everyone likes tonal music, but some people don't only like tonal music, and nobody likes all tonal music! Regarding Penderecki: his earlier music strikes me as imaginative and exploratory, his later music as limited in both sonic and expressive senses, and for those reasons quite unapproachable in fact - whether it's tonal doesn't have much to do with it, and in fact his earlier music deploys tonality in some really interesting and unexpected ways, like the Orthodox chant-like moments in Utrenja.

Offline OrchestralNut

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #668 on: October 15, 2021, 03:18:40 PM »
Well, you'll have to count me in as one who likes a wide variety of Penderecki's works from early to late. I'm sure John (MI) and some others feels the same way.

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #669 on: October 16, 2021, 07:00:26 AM »
Well, you'll have to count me in as one who likes a wide variety of Penderecki's works from early to late. I'm sure John (MI) and some others feels the same way.

Yes, I think there's a lot to enjoy in all of Penderecki's oeuvre. Also, this belief that his earlier, more avant-garde works are somehow better just because they're wilder and more spontaneous is wrong-headed, IMHO. The composer has stated many times that he needed to move away from this style as he felt he had exhausted it, which I believe he did and the proof of this in the pudding as the saying goes. Penderecki's more tonal works are incredibly focused works that require more than a passing listen to get into and understand. One can very well just not like the music, but no one should make the mistake of completely writing these works off. Works like the Horn Concerto, String Quartet No. 3, "Leaves of an unwritten diary", Symphonies Nos. 6, 7 & 8, A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me, the Sinfoniettas, the Sextet, Violin Sonata No. 2 et. al. all demonstrate a wide range of style. I think once a person actually starts digging into his oeuvre and not just superficially, they will begin to realize there's more variety in his writing then what was initially thought.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 07:02:09 AM by Mirror Image »
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Offline Maestro267

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #670 on: October 16, 2021, 07:49:50 AM »
Yes, I think there's a lot to enjoy in all of Penderecki's oeuvre. Also, this belief that his earlier, more avant-garde works are somehow better just because they're wilder and more spontaneous is wrong-headed, IMHO. The composer has stated many times that he needed to move away from this style as he felt he had exhausted it, which I believe he did and the proof of this in the pudding as the saying goes. Penderecki's more tonal works are incredibly focused works that require more than a passing listen to get into and understand. One can very well just not like the music, but no one should make the mistake of completely writing these works off. Works like the Horn Concerto, String Quartet No. 3, "Leaves of an unwritten diary", Symphonies Nos. 6, 7 & 8, A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me, the Sinfoniettas, the Sextet, Violin Sonata No. 2 et. al. all demonstrate a wide range of style. I think once a person actually starts digging into his oeuvre and not just superficially, they will begin to realize there's more variety in his writing then what was initially thought.

This, 100%. He got 40+ years of works out of the tonal idiom compared to 20 years at most out of avant-garde.

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #671 on: October 16, 2021, 09:04:16 AM »
The composer has stated many times that he needed to move away from this style as he felt he had exhausted it
This is clear. But whether it was really necessary to go from there to a much more retrospective style is another question. I remember reading an interview with him from (I think) the mid-1970s in which he said he might go more deeply into electronic music, which would have been interesting, given the partly electronic soundtrack he had already composed for the film The Saragossa Manuscript in 1965. Having said all this, much of his earlier work is quite derivative of the music of some of his contemporaries, Xenakis, Ligeti and Stockhausen in particular, sometimes almost to the point of plagiarism (Ligeti's Continuum in his Partita for harpsichord and orchestra, Stockhausen's Momente in Canticum Canticorum Salomonis etc.). This habit of his is something else I find puzzling about his work.

this belief that his earlier, more avant-garde works are somehow better just because they're wilder and more spontaneous is wrong-headed
It's a matter of taste, not of the rightness or wrongness of one's head, isn't it? Some of us might find wildness and spontaneity highly attractive as features of music. Anyway it's interesting that you find a wide range of style in the works you mention, and thanks for those recommendations, I do sometimes delve into Penderecki's later music to try to find something in it that I can get to grips with (rather than "writing it off"), but so far I haven't been successful. Going back then to the music from the 1960-75 period I feel much more at home.

This, 100%. He got 40+ years of works out of the tonal idiom compared to 20 years at most out of avant-garde.

And Paul McCartney got 8 years out of the Beatles followed by 50 years (and counting) from his rather less inspired later output. That's a non-argument really...

Offline OrchestralNut

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #672 on: October 16, 2021, 01:45:55 PM »
To me it seems so dull and unvaried (as is perhaps evidenced by the way some of the concertos can be so easily arranged for different solo instruments).

Guess that is why Johann Sebastian Bach wrote so much dull music, as his is easily arranged for other instruments.

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #673 on: October 16, 2021, 02:25:55 PM »
Guess that is why Johann Sebastian Bach wrote so much dull music, as his is easily arranged for other instruments.
I don't think there's any call for sarcasm! As you must be aware, the solo part in a 20th or 21st century concerto can't really be compared with the parts in a piece of baroque music. The composer under discussion is one whose music up to a certain point in his artistic development is highly sophisticated in its sensitivity to timbre and texture, and then this sophistication seems to be abandoned, which I think is really a shame. I would really like to appreciate the later output of someone whose earlier work made such a strong impression on me, but so far I haven't succeeded. Anyway, his Horn Concerto beckons.

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #674 on: October 16, 2021, 06:30:57 PM »
I don't think there's any call for sarcasm! As you must be aware, the solo part in a 20th or 21st century concerto can't really be compared with the parts in a piece of baroque music. The composer under discussion is one whose music up to a certain point in his artistic development is highly sophisticated in its sensitivity to timbre and texture, and then this sophistication seems to be abandoned, which I think is really a shame. I would really like to appreciate the later output of someone whose earlier work made such a strong impression on me, but so far I haven't succeeded. Anyway, his Horn Concerto beckons.

You seem like you want or enjoy disliking Penderecki's later works. Ok, we all know you have your opinion and others have their own. Let's move on.
Give us something else; give us something new; for Heaven's sake give us something bad, so long as we feel we are alive and active and not just passive admirers of tradition!

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #675 on: October 16, 2021, 07:05:26 PM »
This is clear. But whether it was really necessary to go from there to a much more retrospective style is another question. I remember reading an interview with him from (I think) the mid-1970s in which he said he might go more deeply into electronic music, which would have been interesting, given the partly electronic soundtrack he had already composed for the film The Saragossa Manuscript in 1965. Having said all this, much of his earlier work is quite derivative of the music of some of his contemporaries, Xenakis, Ligeti and Stockhausen in particular, sometimes almost to the point of plagiarism (Ligeti's Continuum in his Partita for harpsichord and orchestra, Stockhausen's Momente in Canticum Canticorum Salomonis etc.). This habit of his is something else I find puzzling about his work.
 It's a matter of taste, not of the rightness or wrongness of one's head, isn't it? Some of us might find wildness and spontaneity highly attractive as features of music. Anyway it's interesting that you find a wide range of style in the works you mention, and thanks for those recommendations, I do sometimes delve into Penderecki's later music to try to find something in it that I can get to grips with (rather than "writing it off"), but so far I haven't been successful. Going back then to the music from the 1960-75 period I feel much more at home.

The composer wrote the music that he wanted to write. Like it or dislike it is up to the listener. I'm just saying, in my own experience, that it's best not to completely dismiss music which later could speak to you in a way that you hadn't imagined before. I will say that it took me quite some time to come around to Penderecki, but I heard something within his style that spoke to me, I just didn't have the necessary key to unlock what it was that made me continuously try his music. I'm glad I persevered and gave his music a chance to grow on me.
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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #676 on: October 16, 2021, 10:36:58 PM »
Works like the Horn Concerto, String Quartet No. 3, "Leaves of an unwritten diary", Symphonies Nos. 6, 7 & 8, A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me, the Sinfoniettas, the Sextet, Violin Sonata No. 2 et. al. all demonstrate a wide range of style.
Thanks again for these recommendations. I've been listening to the Horn Concerto, Sextet and A Sea of Dreams..., none of which I'd heard before, and indeed found much more variety than I'd anticipated. While I found the Concerto and Sextet a bit incoherent, A Sea of Dreams... kept me fascinated from start to finish. While there are obvious (and for me quite unexpected) echoes of Szymanowski, I really wouldn't have guessed the composer if I hadn't known: there's a subtlety in the scoring, material and form which I hadn't previously experienced in his later music. I look forward to exploring your other selections.

You seem like you want or enjoy disliking Penderecki's later works.
Not in the least, as you see.

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #677 on: October 17, 2021, 06:30:51 AM »
Thanks again for these recommendations. I've been listening to the Horn Concerto, Sextet and A Sea of Dreams..., none of which I'd heard before, and indeed found much more variety than I'd anticipated. While I found the Concerto and Sextet a bit incoherent, A Sea of Dreams... kept me fascinated from start to finish. While there are obvious (and for me quite unexpected) echoes of Szymanowski, I really wouldn't have guessed the composer if I hadn't known: there's a subtlety in the scoring, material and form which I hadn't previously experienced in his later music. I look forward to exploring your other selections.

Excellent to read, orchestrion. I'm glad you could find something to enjoy. 8)
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Offline OrchestralNut

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #678 on: October 19, 2021, 06:24:40 AM »
Now listening to this stunning 2-disc, a gift from John (MI) - Many thanks again, my friend.  :)  Impeccable performances!

Includes:

La Follia (2013) for solo violin
Duo concertante (2010) for violin and double bass
Sonata No. 2 (1999) for violin and piano
Metamorphosen, Violin Concerto No. 2 (1992-95)



Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
« Reply #679 on: October 19, 2021, 06:30:31 AM »
Now listening to this stunning 2-disc, a gift from John (MI) - Many thanks again, my friend.  :)  Impeccable performances!

Includes:

La Follia (2013) for solo violin
Duo concertante (2010) for violin and double bass
Sonata No. 2 (1999) for violin and piano
Metamorphosen, Violin Concerto No. 2 (1992-95)




You're welcome and, yes, there's much to enjoy in that set.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."