Krzysztof Penderecki (1933-2020)

[greg]

Lol, i thought YOU were the expert 

Perhaps they have had special performances in the Czech Republic were the original Latin text is translated, maybe? Or maybe he is talking theoretically? Or maybe he's working on a 9th symphony, which is sung in Czech?

[Maciek]

But he clearly states that the language of the text influenced the work itself.

I guess he must mean the Hymn to St. Adalbert. I've never heard the piece, but given that St. Adalbert was Czech, it would seem logical...

[greg]

But he clearly states that the language of the text influenced the work itself.

I guess he must mean the Hymn to St. Adalbert. I've never heard the piece, but given that St. Adalbert was Czech, it would seem logical...

Well, there you go, that must be it. There's probably no recordings to check, though- no results at Amazon.

[Dundonnell]

I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful!

[not edward]

I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful!

I don't guarantee I have this 100% right, but I believe both the viola concerto and the flute concerto have been arranged for clarinet and orchestra. Presumably this would mean your disc had the clarinet version of the viola concerto and the original version of the flute concerto.....

[Josquin des Prez]

I haven't heard a lot of his music yet but his late chamber works kick all sorts of arse, far superior to his early stuff.

[gomro]

I haven't heard a lot of his music yet but his late chamber works kick all sorts of arse, far superior to his early stuff.

As much as I like the De Natura Sonoris twins and some of the other pieces, I much prefer late Penderecki to the earlier works.  He has stated that he feels the later pieces are "more important," and that he dropped much of his avantgardeisms (sheesh! That's not a word!) to write "music with a human face." It certainly has that.

[Dundonnell]

As much as I like the De Natura Sonoris twins and some of the other pieces, I much prefer late Penderecki to the earlier works.  He has stated that he feels the later pieces are "more important," and that he dropped much of his avantgardeisms (sheesh! That's not a word!) to write "music with a human face." It certainly has that.

I agree with you but it is a very unfashionable and minority view here and with the critics

[greg]

I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful!

When I see Penderecki's thread all of a sudden at the top, I almost get a heart attack. I start thinking that the next post I see is going to be a death report........

[Dundonnell]

 

Are you saying that all that needs to be said about Penderecki the living composer has been said?

'cos it hasn't I need my questions answered

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I haven't heard a lot of his music yet but his late chamber works kick all sorts of arse, far superior to his early stuff.

If you're referring to the Sextet and the Clarinet Quartet, then I agree about their @ss-kicking qualities. He seems to have a real knack for chamber music, why doesn't he compose more of it? 

[Mark G. Simon]

Chamber music with clarinet kicks @ss by definition.

[not edward]

If you're referring to the Sextet and the Clarinet Quartet, then I agree about their @ss-kicking qualities. He seems to have a real knack for chamber music, why doesn't he compose more of it? 

Agreed about those two. I'd add in the string trio, which has a bite and concision often missing from KP's oeuvre.

On the other hand, I find the second violin sonata flabby, predictable and diffuse. Three out of four isn't bad, though.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Agreed about those two. I'd add in the string trio, which has a bite and concision often missing from KP's oeuvre.

I'd also add the Divertimento for Cello. Lots of fun for the listener, a real workout for the cellist, and rather haunting at times.

[greg]

Are you saying that all that needs to be said about Penderecki the living composer has been said?

'cos it hasn't I need my questions answered

no, i hope not. But I think the Curse of the 9th might have an effect on him........

[Sef]

For me, both are rambling, intermittently beautiful, but too loosely-structured for my taste.

For people interested in this composer, Naxos is about to release the Eighth Symphony ('Lieder der Verganglichkeit') on a disc with the Dies Irae and Aus den Psalmen Davids. When I heard this symphony, I felt it was one of Penderecki's more convincing recent works, so I'll be looking forward to reacquainting myself with it.

I was listening to the Naxos Violin 1 & 2, then borrowed both from the library, and grappled with them both for a while. #2 is actually growing on me right now. Have you watched this series on youtube - starting with this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u2QviNbj7o
?

[jowcol]

I'm curious what feelings people here may have about Penderecki's Actions, which is a semi-improvised work featuring a who's who of the european free Jazz scene in 1971. A review of the album is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/f3n8/

Personally, it is one of my favorites of his more avante-garde period.  The fractured, explosive solo Terje Rypdal unleased on electric guitar was amazing, and the overblown horns in the beginning were way cool.  The only drawback was the bass walk which, compared to some of the stuff other bassist were doing at the time, seemed a bit dated and out of place.   Since I've long felt that some of the best 60s and early 70s avante-garde came from the jazz world, it was very enlightening to hear both forces join.

The Don Cherry on the flip side was a bit more uneven-- not quite on the level of some of his previous work, but still a worthy flip side-- back when albums had sides.

[Mark G. Simon]

no, i hope not. But I think the Curse of the 9th might have an effect on him........

First he has to overcome the curse of the 6th!

[not edward]

I'm curious what feelings people here may have about Penderecki's Actions, which is a semi-improvised work featuring a who's who of the european free Jazz scene in 1971. A review of the album is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/f3n8/

Personally, it is one of my favorites of his more avante-garde period.  The fractured, explosive solo Terje Rypdal unleased on electric guitar was amazing, and the overblown horns in the beginning were way cool.  The only drawback was the bass walk which, compared to some of the stuff other bassist were doing at the time, seemed a bit dated and out of place.   Since I've long felt that some of the best 60s and early 70s avante-garde came from the jazz world, it was very enlightening to hear both forces join.

The Don Cherry on the flip side was a bit more uneven-- not quite on the level of some of his previous work, but still a worthy flip side-- back when albums had sides.

I've always meant to hear this piece, but haven't ever got around to it.

(I just wish the coupling of the name Don Cherry with avant-garde experimental jazz didn't make me laugh--as I'm sure it does to other viewers of Hockey Night in TorontoCanada.)

[Guido]

I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful!

I only know about the cello concertos, but I'll post what I just happened topost on another forum this morning on the matter:

...I myself am not a huge fan in general of his music, but he has contributed 6 large scale cello concertos of one form or another - 2 bona fide cello concertos, an authorized arrangement of the viola concerto, an early sonata for cello and orchestra which was later revised to produce the first concerto (but remains as a stand alone work), a concerto grosso for three cellos and orchestra (2001) and his latest piece called simply 'Largo' which Rostropovich played the last time he appeared in public as a cellist (as well of course as the ubiquitous Dvorak cello concerto).

This new Naxos release of the latter three works (two of which are premiere commercial recordings) is what has sparked my thought on his output. I find his ideas on composition and his 'liberation' from the infamous avant guardist to the post modern romanticist he is today quite interesting, and there are certainly more than a few decent works in his output. But a lot of it is rather dull Mahlerian noodling imho, and it doesn't quite do it for me. I wished the triple concerto (or rather the concerto grosso) were better, as that is a set of forces that particularly excites me, but it just isn't that good (at least from the recording I have already heard). The Largo is better I think (it's shorter!) but even here, despite some good music there seems to be a lot of padding. I look forward to the Naxos CD of these two works.

For me undoubtedly the best cello work is the Second cello concerto - an enormous piece that perfectly bridges the avant guard and post modern romantic periods in his creative output. You can even see it happening within the piece. As was so often the case, Rostropovich somehow inspired the composer to produce the absolute best that he was capable of - I need hardly mention that Shostakovich's concertos, Lutoslawski's, Dutilleux's, Britten's, Vainberg's, Tischenko's, Hoddinott's concertps etc. etc. are all amongst the best and most important pieces in their respective composer's output (each according to their own level of talent of course). The same is true here - The Second concerto is a hugely impressive and undoubtedly highly emotionally engaging score, whether one likes his style or not. Astonishingly, (though perhaps not anymore, as the astonishing stories are so numerous with regards to Rostropovich) he learned the whole score and findish solo part in only 2 weeks (the day he got it to the day of the premiere). The first concerto I also like, much tougher on the ear though but not really at the same level as the second concerto...

Here's the CD, which I have of course ordered. I will let you know if my opinins on the two late works change dramatically... I somehow doubt they will, but the artists here are all superb, so who knows. Ato Noras is a particular favourite of mine and is quite committed to Penderecki's movements music, having recorded the viola concerto and two cello concertos before. A truly superlative artist.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Penderecki-Works-Cellos-Orchestra-Krzystof/dp/B001F1YBUI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1223432360&sr=8-2

This stuff about the late chamber music interests me greatly - will have to czech it out.