Krzysztof Penderecki (1933-2020)

[DieNacht]

Overall he has IMO been repeating himself way too much in the later decades, even as regards the motifs of the individual works; the later symphonies and most of the later concerti are often examples. Pettersson, Nørgård, Rochberg or even Artyomov for instance have more varied things to say, I think. But the "Te Deum" (1980) is a major and very impressive piece, a favourite, which I wouldn´t be without.
 
Would be nice with some Chandos-like recordings of the symphonies; the sound of the Naxos ones seem a bit dry, making the music even simpler ...

[karlhenning]

. . . But the "Te Deum" (1980) is a major and very impressive piece, a favourite, which I wouldn´t be without.

I need to revisit that . . . it didn't make much of an impact on me when I first heard it, but that was decades ago, and my ears are different now.

[Lethevich]

I have tried but can't really feel the "regressive is bad" argument. I don't like most of Penderecki's recent music because I simply find it to be quite uninteresting, but any composer who can write something like this 8th symphony still has some legs. I admire it more than love it, but it's a piece in which I feel that the composer has written something meaningful - not really in any sense of innovation or particular exquisiteness, but because nobody else has written a piece like this. The natural comparison is Das Lied von der Erde or Shostakovich's 14th, but the atmosphere is the composer's own - a result of decades of writing good choral music, although not neccesserally any better than his early works, simply different, enjoyable and I'm glad it was written.

[not edward]

I've never been particularly drawn to much of the avant-garde Penderecki, which to me is very much painted in broad brush strokes, with too much surface effect without a lot of underlying logic to make it a rewarding repeat listen. This is probably an unfair critique of this period of his output (I'd say it applies to Gorecki's avant-garde period too) but in my mind his work form this period is dwarfed in stature by the somewhat more conservative but much subtler contemporary works of Lutoslawski and Bacewicz.

I can take or leave much of his later works, which to me are often very repetitive and sit in the composer's own personal comfort zone; however I keep listening as every now and then a work like the Sextet crops up, where Penderecki seems to push outside his safe area to create something more ambitious.

[DieNacht]

Is that to be understood as a moral or a creative accusation against Shostakovich, or both ?

[Mirror Image]

To apply the word "tradition" to composers like Shostakovich, later Penderecki and Arvo Part implies a corruption and a subversion of the meaning of the word "tradition."

Shostakovich, Penderecki, and Part are all apart of the classical tradition whether you want to believe it or not. If anything, composers like Boulez, Xenakis, Stockhausen, etc. represent a degradation from the tradition by forcing their "intellectual" music on a listener. Shostakovich, Penderecki, and Part get regular performances while some orchestras have to sandwich a Boulez or Stockhausen piece into a concert program just so it may get heard.

[Maciek]

Just a reminder:

The GMG Golden Rule
Please treat other members of this forum with courtesy and respect. By all means, discuss and argue the topic at hand, but do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member.

(I've marked my intrusions in some of the previous posts with a: [ ].)

[Brahmsian]

Just added 15 Penderecki discs to my 'wish list'.   

I think it is almost time for Naxos to issue a box set.  Oh well, at $7.99 CDN a disc, how can one complain?

[Mirror Image]

Just added 15 Penderecki discs to my 'wish list'.   

I think it is almost time for Naxos to issue a box set.  Oh well, at $7.99 CDN a disc, how can one complain?

Yeah, I'm seriously surprised they haven't yet, Ray.

[Mirror Image]

On my first go around with Penderecki I have to say I'm pretty underwhelmed at the moment. Maybe I'm just tired and not giving the music the attention it deserves, but I have felt completely nothing from his music yet. I'm a pretty optimistic person by nature, but listening to his music just brings me down, which is why I don't listen to Pettersson's music much. But even in Pettersson's better music there is relief from the onslaught of dissonance. Okay, so far I've heard the first volume of orchestral works on Naxos which features works like the 3rd symphony and the famous Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima. I've only heard the first disc of his Polish Requiem. I knew what I was getting into when I bought all of these recordings of his music, but I honestly don't think he's going to be a composer I listen to very much. Hopefully, the next couple of days will go better, but I am glad I have a good chunk of his music in my collection. Speaking of downers, is it time for me to revisit Schnittke yet?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

You don't like the 3rd Symphony? It's one of the few Neo-Romantic works that sticks with me.

[MDL]

Dux has just issued a new recording of the (rather boring) 4th Symphony, Adagio. 31 minutes of music without a coupling on a full-price+ disk; £17 in HMV! What a ripoff! Especially since Naxos's Wit recording is coupled with the 2nd Symphony for a third of the price.

[DavidW]

I think I missed this before... that's too bad MI I really like the 3rd symphony... but I understand what you're saying about it being both dissonant and dark.  That's why also I don't think that neoromantic is the appropriate word to describe Penderecki's tonal works.  They are not romantic.  I call them neotonal because the neo- reminds us that it is a new kind of tonal after the time of atonal music, and tonal instead of romantic or classical because while the music has the more traditional tonal center it doesn't share much with pre-20th century music.

[Mirror Image]

I think I missed this before... that's too bad MI I really like the 3rd symphony... but I understand what you're saying about it being both dissonant and dark.  That's why also I don't think that neoromantic is the appropriate word to describe Penderecki's tonal works.  They are not romantic.  I call them neotonal because the neo- reminds us that it is a new kind of tonal after the time of atonal music, and tonal instead of romantic or classical because while the music has the more traditional tonal center it doesn't share much with pre-20th century music.

I'm hoping to sink my teeth into more of the Penderecki recordings I bought, but right now my mind is preoccupied with Messiaen, Britten, Bartok, and Hindemith.

[DavidW]

I'm hoping to sink my teeth into more of the Penderecki recordings I bought, but right now my mind is preoccupied with Messiaen, Britten, Bartok, and Hindemith.

I look forward to more of your impressions... post here please.  I miss many posts on the listening thread because it goes too fast.

[Mirror Image]

I look forward to more of your impressions... post here please.  I miss many posts on the listening thread because it goes too fast.

Will do, Dave.

[lescamil]

Penderecki does the same or similar thing with different settings. All of his music is quite dark and gloomy. Some of his symphonies have real refinement and emotion, but his concertos are the opposite, just noise. When there is a reason to all the ugliness like in the Hiroshima piece it makes sense, but if there is no reason, then why keep on doing it? Can't he compose something spiritual and emotional for a change? Why all the darkness and ugliness? Didn't Shostakovich do that way better anyway? Penderecki is one-sided, you always know what to expect with a piece of his, it will always be dark. Baczewicz was dark too but not always. She was way better composer than Penderecki in my opinion.

Sounds like you haven't heard anything that Penderecki has composed after 1976. I suggest you listen to to his second symphony, or anything he composed after it. That includes his two violin concertos, the piano concerto, or his second cello concerto. He had sort of the "opposite" musical evolution that Bacewicz had. Both were/are masters, but are beyond comparison.

[ibanezmonster]

Can't he compose something spiritual and emotional for a change?

Sounds like you haven't heard anything that Penderecki has composed after 1976.

I'd say most of his stuff after this time period is spiritual and emotional...

[Dundonnell]

Three years ago on this Forum I wrote (in a thread called "The Magic of the Poles"- http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7936.msg208165.html#msg208165)

"I meant the British professional music critics whose reviews of Penderecki's music adorn the pages of the journals that I read. For reasons which are not clear to me the editors of these British journals continually ask hostile critics to review new releases of Penderecki's music. Professor Arnold Whittall of King's College, London, for example, seems to be the person the 'Gramophone' magazine always turns to if there is a new Penderecki disc out. Then we get the same old refrain-"Penderecki has written nothing of value since 1980". "

Nothing has changed in three years. Whittall still reviews the new Penderecki cds...with the same results.

[cilgwyn]

Three years ago on this Forum I wrote (in a thread called "The Magic of the Poles"- http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7936.msg208165.html#msg208165)

"I meant the British professional music critics whose reviews of Penderecki's music adorn the pages of the journals that I read. For reasons which are not clear to me the editors of these British journals continually ask hostile critics to review new releases of Penderecki's music. Professor Arnold Whittall of King's College, London, for example, seems to be the person the 'Gramophone' magazine always turns to if there is a new Penderecki disc out. Then we get the same old refrain-"Penderecki has written nothing of value since 1980". "

Nothing has changed in three years. Whittall still reviews the new Penderecki cds...with the same results.

Ah ha! So,Arnold Whitall's the one who keeps saying that? I wondered who it was.