Krzysztof Penderecki (1933-2020)

[Mirror Image]

I know this post will warrant a 'thanks for stopping by' reply, but I have a confession to make: I have yet to hear a Penderecki work I enjoy. Unlike many composers of his generation, I find it difficult to get through one of his works without constantly thinking "What's the point?" This isn't music like Takemitsu or Sculthorpe where I can get lost in their 'soundscapes' nor is this a composer like Hartmann or Lutoslawski where I can hear the past in their music and/or some kind of link to the great tradition that keeps it 'grounded' so to speak. Penderecki just feels like a composer that has been going through the motions for decades with the exception of his early, more experimental works. I mean he ranks up there with Pettersson as coming across as grandstanding with no platform to stand on. I understand misery (probably better than I should), but this shouldn't be your only resource as a composer. To sum up, I believe Penderecki is a one-trick pony that has really worn out that one trick decades ago.

All IMHO of course and it's okay to tell me I'm ignorant and I need to clean my ears out. I've heard it all before.

[Maestro267]

The next volume of Antoni Wit/Warsaw PO's Penderecki series on Naxos is coming in October, this time featuring "A sea of dreams did breathe on me...", an hour-long song cycle from 2010, for soprano, alto & baritone soloists, chorus and orchestra.

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573062

[lescamil]

All IMHO of course and it's okay to tell me I'm ignorant and I need to clean my ears out. I've heard it all before.

Then you'll hear it again!

That said, for as great as Penderecki is, I will say that in the pantheon of Polish music he is far behind the likes of Chopin, Szymanowski, Lutoslawski, and Panufnik (that order for me, but that's a different topic).

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Penderecki just feels like a composer that has been going through the motions for decades with the exception of his early, more experimental works. I mean he ranks up there with Pettersson as coming across as grandstanding with no platform to stand on.

Interesting that you link these two. I like much by both of them, but with some serious caveats. However, I find them different in that I never doubt Pettersson's sincerity or earnestness even when I don't like what I'm hearing, while with Penderecki, when I hear something from him I don't like, it feels like he's just going through the motions as you say.

[Mirror Image]

Interesting that you link these two. I like much by both of them, but with some serious caveats. However, I find them different in that I never doubt Pettersson's sincerity or earnestness even when I don't like what I'm hearing, while with Penderecki, when I hear something from him I don't like, it feels like he's just going through the motions as you say.

I like more of Pettersson than Penderecki. Take Pettersson's 7th for example. I love this work and feel it has the best elements of his style rolled into that symphony.

[Joaquimhock]

Strange "post-classical" or neo something new piece by Penderecki... "Polonez": https://vimeo.com/141873703

[Maestro267]

Fine piece, that. Interesting to see the offstage brass band there (including a sousaphone, no less.) Many of Penderecki's works in the last 30 years or so make great use of offstage instruments, most notably the 7th Symphony.

[snyprrr]

I like more of Pettersson than Penderecki. Take Pettersson's 7th for example. I love this work and feel it has the best elements of his style rolled into that symphony.

'Christmas' Symphony No.2

Violin Concerto No.1

Cello Concerto (from the '80s)

The Symphony is very Petterssonian, as is the VC, though, yes, AGP has much more "argument" going on, whereas Penderecki seems to like to wallow... I like the wallowing in the Sym. glue-me

[Cato]

Strange "post-classical" or neo something new piece by Penderecki... "Polonez": https://vimeo.com/141873703

Here is the score, courtesy of Schott Music!

http://www.schott-music.com/shop/9/show,334632.html

[snyprrr]

Krzysztof Penderecki : Poland's greatest living composer born #OnThisDay

I was able to break out of my Nordic-mania with KP here recently. I've been enjoying both of the EMI 2CD sets, though, I do like the fun, earlier stuff better.

For the first time, I really listened to the 'Threnody...', and, huh, once you get passed the famous intro, there really is a few things going on. A lot of course reminds one of Xenakis, but, without a shred of scientific mathematics behind it, which, technically, relegatesKP to the "fun pile" for me- all I hear is what's missing from a more rigorous, Xenakian approach. However, I still find the sounds lots of fun.

Yay KP!!

[Maestro267]

Today marks the 50th anniversary of the premiere of one of Penderecki's most important works, the St. Luke Passion.

[Mirror Image]

I noticed that Mr. Henning has been absent from this thread. I'd love to get his take on Penderecki's music. Come on, Karl!

[Mirror Image]

I noticed that Mr. Henning has been absent from this thread. I'd love to get his take on Penderecki's music. Come on, Karl!

I'm still waiting, Karl.

[Androcles]

Penderecki does strike me definitely as a neo-romantic. But then, just like with Stravinsky there does seem to be more to the way he looks back at past styles.

I do find him as an odd composer to approach. His 60s works are good (not as interesting to me as his peers though), his symphonies are interesting, so are his concertos. There are great works there but compared to his peers, he sticks out as an oddball.   

I agree that he is Neo-Romantic. There's even a rather 'romantic' element to some of the 1960s work, I think. I'm not sure he's such an oddball though. His general trajectory from avantgarde to a more conservative idiom is in line with quite a number of composers who made a similar move in the 1970s, particularly in Eastern Europe: Arvo Part, Einojuhani Rautavaara, Valentin Silvestrov, even Alfred Schnittke. I suspect though, in most of the above cases, either the composer wasn't so well known as an avantgardist, or they didn't move quite so far back in the 'conservative' direction.

Recent music by Penderecki is not a terribly difficult listening experience, and can seem a bit gimmicky at times (some of the themes in the Piano Concerto, the 'tubaphones' in the Seven Gates of Jerusalem). That said, some of it has got some depth to it - Symphony No. 3, Violin Sonata No. 2 and a few others. Personally I have something of a soft spot for the earlier 'conservative' music: 1st Violin Concerto, Viola Concerto, 2nd Symphony, Polish Requiem, although I would agree his best works are probably from the 60s and early 70s - St. Luke Passion, Utrenja, Threnody, De Natura Sonoris I and II, Fluorescences.

I also rather like him as a person, from the interviews I've seen. I also saw him conduct his own music in concert and most enjoyed it. The Viola Concerto was performed and unfortunately the soloist broke a string towards the end - I think he dealt with it very well and, from what I remember gave the soloist a big hug.

[Androcles]

Ok - I see what you mean. You only have to listen to Symphonies 1 and 2 together to see the difference. And for someone as central to avantgardism as Penderecki at the time to then go and produce music like the Symphony No. 2 must have seemed crazy. But I still think theres a rather 'romantic' strain that runs through all his music, though perhaps not always intentionally. I know, for example, that the 'Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima' was only named retrospectively when the composer realised that it had a hefty emotional impact.

I wonder to what extent politics lies behind Penderecki's '360 degree' turn.

I think for a lot of Eastern European composers theres something a bit dialectical about tendencies toward the avantgarde. Because this kind of music was banned until 1956 (Stalinism), composers initially saw modernist experimentation as a way of expressing a sort of protest, but more than that - as a way of finding life's meaning for oneself. It was an artistic struggle on which life depnded. I think this is certainly the case with Schnittke Symphony No. 1. It is interesting to me how many of those early works of Penderecki were explicitly Catholic in inspiration - and I wonder whether that was all part of the same attempt to find a personal meaning - investigating forbidden music and forbidden spirituality at the same time.

Interesting that Penderecki later said 'The avant-garde gave one an illusion of universalism. The musical world of Stockhausen, Nono, Boulez and Cage was for us, the young – hemmed in by the aesthetics of socialist realism, then the official canon in our country – a liberation...I was quick to realise however, that this novelty, this experimentation and formal speculation, is more destructive than constructive; I realised the Utopian quality of its Promethean tone'. Penderecki concluded that he was 'saved from the avant-garde snare of formalism by a return to tradition'  Perhaps by the late 70s and early 80s, the composer no longer felt the need for a reactionary way of composing music. The need to reach a wider public and become a sort of national institution was far more important. Particularly as movements like Solidarnost gained some traction and then by the late 80s Gorbachev's reform meant for unforeseen liberalisation in the Eastern bloc, suddenly Penderecki felt he had a degree of social responsibility in writing his music. I think he tried to use it to reflect the hopes and tragedies of the Polish people. I think you can see this in the Polish Requiem in particular.

Perhaps this is why his music from the 90s onwards has lost some vitality - it has no really consistent political context to find meaning in. I think you can see Penderecki searching in vain for a political meaning - The Piano Concerto was inspired by the Terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre and the Seven Gates of Jerusalem was commisioned for the 3000th anniversary of the founding of Jerusalem... It rather too often doesn't quite sound genuine.

I expect those composers who lived largely in the West didn't feel these things in the same way, and others were perhaps less interested in being a 'prophetic' voice. Arvo Part has felt less need for this due to his Orthodox spiritual focus, but I think his recent Los Angeles Symphony has something like this going on in it, dedicated as it is to Mikhail Khodorkovsky and the many innocent people languishing in Russian prisons.

[Joaquimhock]

6th symphony to be (finally) performed in 4 days. He says it's his last experience in the genre:

https://en.schott-music.com/work-week-krzysztof-penderecki-symphony-6/

[Turner]

6th symphony to be (finally) performed in 4 days. He says it's his last experience in the genre:

https://en.schott-music.com/work-week-krzysztof-penderecki-symphony-6/

Interesting, thanks - also whether - or to what degree - it represents something different from the other symphonies & later syng cycles, etc.

[Maestro267]

This is exciting news! I actually wondered if he was going to work on a Symphony No. 6, or just leave it blank and move on to No. 9.

[Mirror Image]

I agree that he is Neo-Romantic. There's even a rather 'romantic' element to some of the 1960s work, I think. I'm not sure he's such an oddball though. His general trajectory from avantgarde to a more conservative idiom is in line with quite a number of composers who made a similar move in the 1970s, particularly in Eastern Europe: Arvo Part, Einojuhani Rautavaara, Valentin Silvestrov, even Alfred Schnittke. I suspect though, in most of the above cases, either the composer wasn't so well known as an avantgardist, or they didn't move quite so far back in the 'conservative' direction.

Recent music by Penderecki is not a terribly difficult listening experience, and can seem a bit gimmicky at times (some of the themes in the Piano Concerto, the 'tubaphones' in the Seven Gates of Jerusalem). That said, some of it has got some depth to it - Symphony No. 3, Violin Sonata No. 2 and a few others. Personally I have something of a soft spot for the earlier 'conservative' music: 1st Violin Concerto, Viola Concerto, 2nd Symphony, Polish Requiem, although I would agree his best works are probably from the 60s and early 70s - St. Luke Passion, Utrenja, Threnody, De Natura Sonoris I and II, Fluorescences.

I also rather like him as a person, from the interviews I've seen. I also saw him conduct his own music in concert and most enjoyed it. The Viola Concerto was performed and unfortunately the soloist broke a string towards the end - I think he dealt with it very well and, from what I remember gave the soloist a big hug.

To the bolded text, I do not agree that Schnittke followed the same paths as the afore mentioned composers. In fact, Schnittke's early career was made up of Shostakovich-inspired pieces and he didn't really start finding his "compositional footing", if you will, until his Symphony No. 1 (1972) and the Piano Quintet (1976). These works demonstrate a completely different path than many of his contemporaries were taking at the time like Pärt, Górecki, among others. Whereas the afore mentioned composers turned to more of a 'conservative' idiom, Schnittke was working his way into one steeped in the Modernism of the day and the avant-garde, but what made Schnittke sound quite different is his usage of polystylism. This is something that he perfected and used up until the mid-80s or so. After suffering a series of strokes, his style turned more inward and became more bleak in scope. Just listen, for example, to his Symphonies Nos. 6, 7, & 8. I just thought I'd chime in since I'm such a Schnittke fan and have studied about his life and music for many years now.

[relm1]

Interesting, thanks - also whether - or to what degree - it represents something different from the other symphonies & later syng cycles, etc.

It seems to be quite different.  First of all it's his shortest symphony at 26 minutes and smallest orchestra than his other symphonies.  The colors seem exotic Chinese songs with erhu (an ancient chinese cello).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fdFGEg-9R8