Composer names--Don't read is the way it is spelled (in English)

Started by springrite, March 06, 2015, 08:39:44 PM

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springrite

I will start with Vagn Holmboe

(No idea how it should be pronounced, which is why I only mention him when I can type the name, and never mention him in conversations.)
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Jo498

If you click at the little ? in the phonetics for the name there is a list of Danish sounds with rough English equivalents. I would have pronounced the first name almost correct but confused the "oe" with the "crossed o" in the surname... It seems that the last name is not all that differently pronounced as an English speaker would do it "naively".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagn_Holmboe
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

amw

I've always liked Hulding Roosenberry.

And Fghawnk Mahghtan.

EigenUser

Nothing too interesting on my list, but some that come to mind immediately:
Dvorak -- there's a big one!
Penderecki (something like Penderetski, I think)
Stockhausen (typical German 's' -- Shtockhausen)
Ligeti (it's 'Liggety' you people! not 'Ligetty' -- they even mispronounced it at the Philadelphia orchestra concert I saw two weeks ago! newbs... ::))
Adès (not 'ades' as in 'lemonades', but 'ah-des')
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Jo498

The German "s" is a normal s, but the combinations "sp" and "st" are usually pronounced "shp" and "sht". (You can see this also in Yiddish words and names which are often German-based and similarly transliterated.) Otherwise the "sh" sound" is "sch" in German" (whereas in  Italian "sch" is "sk", like Gianni Schicchi Djannee Skeekkee).

The more difficult German sounds seem to be the ones represented by "ch". There is a hard one, pronounced rather far back (although not as guttural as some people do it in parodies), like in "Bach", "ach", "lachen" and a softer one (closer to your teeth) like in "Richard" or "ich", "nicht", "Licht"
But overall German pronounciation is quite regular, even in names, and not all that difficult for English speakers.

Penderecki is as you say (whereas in German "ck" would be one sound, like in English). The crossed "l" in Polish is close to English w: Lutoslawski ~ "Loo-tos-wAvskee"
Polish also has nasals which are somewhat hard. Overall the slawic languages are difficult (not only in pronounciation)

Hungarian is also quite regular and everything is stressed on the first syllable. Usual "s" is "sh", "a" is more like an  "o", e.g. "Andras" ~ "On-drush". The normal "sharp s" is written "sz", like in Szell, Kertesz or Szigeti. "ö" is like the German umlaut (similar to the sound in "fur" or French "beurre"). The "gy" in György is something like a soft "dj", softer than "George" would be in English. "c" is "ts", but "cs" is "tch" or "ch", Ferenc Fricsay ~ Ferents Fri - tchy (with the y like in "why"). The "l" in "Kodaly" is very soft, more or less gone.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Abuelo Igor

I didn't know you could read anything in English the way it is spelled.
L'enfant, c'est moi.

Jo498

Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Christo

Quote from: springrite on March 06, 2015, 08:39:44 PMI will start with Vagn Holmboe
(No idea how it should be pronounced, which is why I only mention him when I can type the name, and never mention him in conversations.)

:D I hope there are Danes in this forum! Generally speaking, IMHO Danish is pronounced best by swallowing most letters, only leaving vague sounds that differ in a way that can only be discerned by full-time Danes themselves. Almost the opposite from German, where every letter is pronounced as if it were a bombshell. I do annoy people with him in conversations, saying something like 'Wown Holmbo'. Who knows better?
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948


Jo498

Yikes, I have put the stress in "Dvorak" on the wrong syllable for 25 years. And I do not remember having it heard pronounced properly by a German radio or TV announcer. While the sounds are close enough for my ears they always stress the first syllable...
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mirror Image

Koechlin was always a puzzler for me until a friend, who speaks French fluently, told me the proper pronunciation: KAY CLAN.

Sergeant Rock

the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Jo498 on March 07, 2015, 05:41:50 AM
Yikes, I have put the stress in "Dvorak" on the wrong syllable for 25 years. And I do not remember having it heard pronounced properly by a German radio or TV announcer. While the sounds are close enough for my ears they always stress the first syllable...

I am delighted and amazed: first time I recall having a mental proninciation to be correct, in the event. I always knew there was an affinitiy between Antonin and myself. Now, if he can just get 'BLAN-ston'....   :D

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2015, 05:58:07 AM



Yes, but it doesn't rhyme with Szigeti though, does it? IIRC, this is more like the Italian long thin pasta dish... :-\

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Jo498

For all I know Ligeti and Szigeti should rhyme perfectly. There is only one rule for stresses in Hungarian I have been told: always the first syllable.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

pjme

On the website of the Koechlin family ( very impressive!) one can read:

Keuschlin ... Coquelin ... Ko-é-klin ... Keuklin ... Keuscheline ... Kichlin ...
Toute personne amenée à prononcer le nom de Koechlin connait généralement un moment de solitude. Après quelques secondes d'hésitation, acculée, ne pouvant plus ni reculer ni esquiver, celle-ci se lance enfin dans ce qui devient un véritable exercice de créativité linguistique. C'est alors que les onomatopées fusent...
Pourtant, la prononciation du nom Koechlin n'a rien d'un mystère. En France, elle suit même scrupuleusement les règles de prononciation française.
Explications :
Œ (e dans l'o) se prononce bien "é" dans les quelques mots où ces voyelles sont suivies d'une consonne. On dit justement "œdème" (é-dèm), "œsophage" (é-zofaj), "Œdipe" (é-dip), "œcuménique" (é-cuménic), "œnologie" (é-noloji). Dans bœuf, œuvre, œil, la prononciation "eu" se justifie par la voyelle qui suit. Voilà pour le "Koe" qui, en bon français, se prononce "ké" parce que suivi de "ch".
"CHL" : à part "chtimi" qui est dialectal, connaissez-vous un mot français dans lequel le "ch" suivi d'une consonne ne soit pas prononcée "k" ? Chrome, chlore, chrétien... ne sont estropiés par personne. Chou, chaud, chat, etc... enchaînent le "ch" avec une voyelles et lui donnent le son du "sch" allemand, à peu près.
Vous l'avez compris, le nom Koechlin se prononce donc : "Kéklin". Vous voilà informé : vous n'avez plus aucune excuse pour écorcher notre beau nom de famille !

http://www.koechlin.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47:prononciation-nom-koechlin&catid=22:koechlin-aujourdhui&Itemid=246



North Star

Quote from: Jo498 on March 07, 2015, 03:29:01 AM
you were right. Nothing ever is:

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2011/12/23/english-pronunciation/
QuoteIf you can pronounce correctly every word in this poem, you will be speaking English better than 90% of the native English speakers in the world.

After trying the verses, a Frenchman said he'd prefer six months of hard labour to reading six lines aloud.
:laugh: Great poem to read aloud.  8)
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: North Star on March 07, 2015, 07:29:17 AM
:laugh: Great poem to read aloud.  8)

Seemed pretty straightforward to me. Are you saying, for example, it isn't natural to expect 'foreign' to rhyme with 'boatswain'?  ???  It is still easier than 'Kuijken', dammit!  :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Ken B

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2015, 08:00:23 AM
Seemed pretty straightforward to me. Are you saying, for example, it isn't natural to expect 'foreign' to rhyme with 'boatswain'?  ???  It is still easier than 'Kuijken', dammit!  :)

8)

I see French has reared its head on this thread. I want to hear no nonsense from the French about silent letters in English!
😀

Hattoff

The English names Elgar and Purcell are never pronounced as they would themselves have pronounced them. That's due to snobby gentrification I'm afraid; not helped by the BBC.