Simon Rattle taking over the LSO in 2017

[Mr Bloom]

That is complete garbage which gains no currency through constant repetition. Firstly, the postwar BPO was always an extremely international orchestra and didn't have a typical central German sound (it never sounded anything like Leipzig, Dresden or the crosstown Staatskapelle Berlin, for example). That internationalization was Karajan's work, not Rattle's. What did happen with the BPO on Rattle's watch is that it became even more flexible of an orchestra than it already had been under Abbado with respect to freedom of phrasing and the ability of the musicians to follow each others' tempo changes like the best chamber musicians playing in a much much smaller ensemble. There is no orchestra dead or alive that matches the present day BPO in that department. Secondly, the woodwind section today is easily the best in the world and leagues better than it has ever been. You may disagre with his interpretations, but just from a technical standpoint listen to the woodwind playing, e.g. on their Debussy album or in any of the inner movements of the Brahms symphonies set. There is nothing on any Karajan or Abbado album that comes close. And I doubt that the BPO of the past, which sounded great on overengineered studio recordings, could have played week in and week out on this extremely high level under the constant prying scrutiny of the Digital Concert Hall as the present day BPO does. Again, pick a different conductor if you don't like Rattle - there are plenty to choose from in the DCH archive - but listen to some of the performances in the DCH archive, all of which are regular subscription concerts captured live. The claim that this not an orchestra absolutely at the top of their game and able to produce anything a conductor could ask is just completely unsustainable baloney.

I agree, except on the woodwind part. There are many great woodwind sections nowadays, and I don't think we can elevate one to the rank of "the best".
Anyway, the BPO doesn't sound like any "ordinary orchestra, as you can hear them everywhere". This is just a myth that some naysayers are peddling, without any basis.

[MishaK]

I agree, except on the woodwind part. There are many great woodwind sections nowadays, and I don't think we can elevate one to the rank of "the best".
Anyway, the BPO doesn't sound like any "ordinary orchestra, as you can hear them everywhere". This is just a myth that some naysayers are peddling, without any basis.

I agree that "best of" is kinda hard to prove. That said, I know no other orchestra which has so many individual woodwind players who are so highly admired by their peers, and one at that which works so well together as a group. The fact that the CSO's Mathieu Dufour recently quit to go to the BPO as Blau's successor to become co-principal with Pahud this fall I think speaks volumes as to where that section ranks in the estimation of others in that field.

[Pat B]

I agree that "best of" is kinda hard to prove.

It's actually really easy, just state that it's a "widely accepted fact."

[EigenUser]

Rattle destroyed the sound of the Berliners, this is a widely accepted fact. The Berliners nowadays sound like a ordinary  orchestra, as you can hear them everywhere. They chose him yes, but they hardly expected this outcome. Rattle was hyped by the record companies EMI the biggest promoter, but that did not help to lift him out of the mediocre level. He is just a provincial faceless and visionless conductor. His view is as flat as a pancake, and this you can hear too, whether live or on recordings. He will do the same to the LSO, but maybe this orchestra made the decision to become a pancake too, who knows.
Let it be known that this is MY very personal opinion.

No, that is a fact, and not only my opinion,

Okay, I'm lost...

Seriously, this makes no sense.

I do like Rattle, though. I mean, I don't follow him that closely, but I like what I've heard. On musically-irrelevant note, he does seem like an awesome guy.

[amw]

Rattle destroyed the sound of the Berliners, this is a widely accepted fact.

I thought it was Abbado who destroyed the sound of the Berliners... Karajanistas need to get their facts straight

IMO the BPO under Rattle sounds better than it ever has, it's just that the standards of other first- and second-tier orchestras have improved significantly as well, closing the gap.

[DaveF]

Rattle, who is my contemporary, is not one of my favourite conductors, although I greatly admire his recording of Sibelius's 3rd Symphony which seems difficult to get right on disc.  His is one of the best versions I think.

Hear, hear - and his 4-7 still stand up well, I find - with an orchestra that has been central to his career although not so far mentioned, the CBSO, which he turned from being an average provincial band (when I was living there) to a very superior and enterprising outfit (after I'd moved away - bah).  He was the prime mover in getting the new Symphony Hall built in Birmingham, too, replacing the unfit-for-purpose Town Hall.

[MishaK]

It's actually really easy, just state that it's a "widely accepted fact."

[vandermolen]

Hear, hear - and his 4-7 still stand up well, I find - with an orchestra that has been central to his career although not so far mentioned, the CBSO, which he turned from being an average provincial band (when I was living there) to a very superior and enterprising outfit (after I'd moved away - bah).  He was the prime mover in getting the new Symphony Hall built in Birmingham, too, replacing the unfit-for-purpose Town Hall.

Yes, very much agree with you and I like his Sibelius 5th Symphony too and the recent Bruckner Symphony 9 with the reconstructed last movement.

[springrite]

Yes, very much agree with you and I like his Sibelius 5th Symphony too and the recent Bruckner Symphony 9 with the reconstructed last movement.

I love the reconstructed Bruckner 9th. But can't wait for another recording as I sense that the music is so much better than the performance, though.