New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.

[Karl Henning]

The irony being, of course, that nobody expected much coherence and plausibility from the libretti of Italian or French (grand) opera and they didn't pay them more attention than necessary, if at all; whereas Wagner insisted that his libretti be taken seriously and paid undivided attention, only to come up with contrivances and conceits that rival and even surpass the Italian/French ones.   

When he fancied that his libretti were "great poetry," he was perhaps at the pinnacle of "Look what an ass I am!"

[Florestan]

When he fancied that his libretti were "great poetry," he was perhaps at the pinnacle of "Look what an ass I am!"

One of the most trenchant critics of Wagner's skills as librettist was none other than Schopenhauer, who, as one of the greatest stylists of the German language, surely knew bad prose when he saw it.

https://www.wagnersite.nl/Schopenhauer/Arthur.htm

[Kalevala]

I've enjoyed Tristan and Die Meistersinger over the years--rather less so Das Ring; though, as others here have mentioned, there are gorgeous parts to it.  Hard also to imagine how he created and interwove all of the leitmotifs!  Mind-boggling--for me at least.

K

[Karl Henning]

I've enjoyed Tristan and Die Meistersinger over the years--rather less so Das Ring; though, as others here have mentioned, there are gorgeous parts to it.  Hard also to imagine how he created and interwove all of the leitmotifs!  Mind-boggling--for me at least.

K

Yours is not the sole mind thus to be boggled. I've long hesitated to take the plunge, but the water will soon be ready. 

[Kalevala]

Yours is not the sole mind thus to be boggled. I've long hesitated to take the plunge, but the water will soon be ready.

Go for it!  At least start by putting one of your big toes in.  If you're up to it, either watch and/or listen to something like Solti's CD on it or find something online.

K

[ritter]

The irony being, of course, that nobody expected much coherence and plausibility from the libretti of Italian or French (grand) opera and they didn't pay them more attention than necessary, if at all; whereas Wagner insisted that his libretti be taken seriously and paid undivided attention, only to come up with contrivances and conceits that rival and even surpass the Italian/French ones.   

O ciel, che noia!

[Florestan]

O ciel, che noia!

Precisely. Boredom is Wagner's middle name.  

[Karl Henning]

Precisely. Boredom is Wagner's middle name.  

Les longueurs ennuyeux

[Elgarian Redux]

Most interesting. I suppose it is in part this fell faculty of the Ring which has made it a particular item of Unfinished Business for the Henning ears

There was another factor that I should mention concerning my relationship with the Ring. At the time we were making our way into the Ring (mid-1970s), English National Opera started touring their production, with Rita Hunter as Brunnhilde. We had seats for Gotterdammerung in Manchester. I remember it was a very hot day. The air inside the theatre was stifling. Yet for the bulk of the performance, I stopped noticing the heat. The whole afternoon/evening was the most stupendous thing I'd ever heard or seen. It still is, in hindsight - in the sense that I've never been so utterly transfixed by a performance since. The sets were minimalist, abstract, otherwordly: a landscape for gods. At the end the audience exploded. The applause went on and on and on until sheer exhaustion made everyone stop.

That seared Gotterdammerung into my being forever. It remains the supreme musical experience of my life, and the memory of it has always meant that the Ring is for me, a thing apart.

it looks like Boulez will land today ....

That was another landmark, way back in those early days. The BBC transmitted the whole of one of those Boulez Bayreuth performances in one week on the radio, and we made sure every evening was free, as if we'd booked tickets. The whole Ring unfolded, day after day, with a day's work in between each one. It was exhausting but magnificent, and although I would not now rate the Boulez Ring as the finest (I suspect the published audio recording is what the BBC transmitted, but can't be sure), it has a really important personal appeal. Gwyneth Jones as Brunnhilde knocked me for six. For all its faults, the Chereau production remains for me the most watchable of all the DVD sets.

[Kalevala]

Les longueurs ennuyeux

Karl,

Are you sure that you aren't the tiniest bit jealous of Wagner's popularity?   

K

[Florestan]

Les longueurs ennuyeux

Actually, longueur is a feminine noun (la longueur) so it's Les longueurs ennuyeuses (cf. Les liaisons dangereuses) 

[Karl Henning]

Karl,

Are you sure that you aren't the tiniest bit jealous of Wagner's popularity?   

K

No point in being jealous of a dead composer who has had a 200-year jump on me.... 😉

[(poco) Sforzando]

I've enjoyed Tristan and Die Meistersinger over the years--rather less so Das Ring; though, as others here have mentioned, there are gorgeous parts to it.  Hard also to imagine how he created and interwove all of the leitmotifs!  Mind-boggling--for me at least.

K

And if we're going to be grammatically precise, Ring in German is masculine, so it's Der Ring des Nibelungen.

[Kalevala]

And if we're going to be grammatically precise, Ring in German is masculine, so it's Der Ring des Nibelungen.

Pardon, it's been a number of years (don't ask!) [and no coffee] since I've taken a German language class and using search engines isn't always accurate--which I tried using.

K

[(poco) Sforzando]

There was another factor that I should mention concerning my relationship with the Ring. At the time we were making our way into the Ring (mid-1970s), English National Opera started touring their production, with Rita Hunter as Brunnhilde. We had seats for Gotterdammerung in Manchester. I remember it was a very hot day. The air inside the theatre was stifling. Yet for the bulk of the performance, I stopped noticing the heat. The whole afternoon/evening was the most stupendous thing I'd ever heard or seen. It still is, in hindsight - in the sense that I've never been so utterly transfixed by a performance since. The sets were minimalist, abstract, otherwordly: a landscape for gods. At the end the audience exploded. The applause went on and on and on until sheer exhaustion made everyone stop.

That seared Gotterdammerung into my being forever. It remains the supreme musical experience of my life, and the memory of it has always meant that the Ring is for me, a thing apart.

Gotterdammerung is in my opinion an overwhelming experience. My favorite Wagner other than Meistersinger. All this talk about Wagner being boring and the lousy libretto makes me wonder how well the posters know the opera. I've seen three complete Ring cycles at the Met in New York under Levine, who unfortunately became more soporific as he grew older, but I had the good fortune to hear both Rita Hunter and Gwyneth Jones in the Brunnhilde role. (Sad to say, I never heard Birgit Nilsson live; it's said her voice was even more powerful in the house than on recordings.) But I did hear a concert performance under Haitink at the Royal Albert during the period when Covent Garden was under renovation, and my all-time great memory of a Gotterdammerung was at the Met in spring 1974, when Rafael Kubelik conducted the work with Rita Hunter and Jess Thomas in the leads. This was the only opera Kubelik conducted in New York other than Les Troyens, but he was a great Wagner conductor and his Meistersinger is widely considered among the best ever recorded.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Pardon, it's been a number of years (don't ask!) [and no coffee] since I've taken a German language class and using search engines isn't always accurate--which I tried using.

K

No matter. I can't always bother finding the codes for those lousy umlauts myself.

[71 dB]

I started listening to Meistersinger (Sawallisch) on Spotify. The prelude is very nice and familiar to me. I am about half an hour in. I listen to this while watching "monster integrals" being solved on youtube channel Calculus Methods. I think it will take me at least a week to finish the whole opera.

[Florestan]

I started listening to Meistersinger (Sawallisch) on Spotify. The prelude is very nice and familiar to me. I am about half an hour in. I listen to this while watching "monster integrals" being solved on youtube channel Calculus Methods. I think it will take me at least a week to finish the whole opera.

If what you actually want is background music for doing math, there are far better options than Wagner.   

[(poco) Sforzando]

If what you actually want is background music for doing math, there are far better options than Wagner.   

Vivaldi?

[Elgarian Redux]

Gotterdammerung is in my opinion an overwhelming experience.

As soon as I read this first sentence, I understood!

All this talk about Wagner being boring and the lousy libretto makes me wonder how well the posters know the opera.

Ritter made a comment a few posts back about the extent to which one's attitude to the Ring is governed by one's attitude to myth. Certainly the music and the myth intertwine, for me, to make a unique kind of experience: a composite of mythic response and music that isn't like anything else I know. I don't sit in judgement on it. I don't carp about the libretto (what would be the point?). Rather, I soak in the entire experience; accept it as it is. And the rewards for doing this are so enormous that I'd have no reason for changing that approach.

I had the good fortune to hear both Rita Hunter and Gwyneth Jones in the Brunnhilde role. (Sad to say, I never heard Birgit Nilsson live; it's said her voice was even more powerful in the house than on recordings.) But I did hear a concert performance under Haitink at the Royal Albert during the period when Covent Garden was under renovation, and my all-time great memory of a Gotterdammerung was at the Met in spring 1974, when Rafael Kubelik conducted the work with Rita Hunter and Jess Thomas in the leads. This was the only opera Kubelik conducted in New York other than Les Troyens, but he was a great Wagner conductor and his Meistersinger is widely considered among the best ever recorded.

Good fortune indeed. My own live experience is feeble by comparison: two ENO Gotterdammerungs and a Tristan by the Welsh counterpart. But the standout, by light years, was that first Gotterdammerung.