New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.

[Madiel]

There's always a first time for everything... 

Yes. But if it takes about 150 years for you to be declared canonical, it's a little less persuasive.

[ritter]

Yes. But if it takes about 150 years for you to be declared canonical, it's a little less persuasive.

Para ti La perra chica (an expression you're already familiar with).

Un abrazo

[ritter]

I don't think you'd like the direction this discussion will take, but I will simply state that western is not the word I would use in reference to the names you listed.

If I won't like the direction this discussion will take, then I won't take it. But I don't have a clue what you are hinting at.

Let's leave it at that, as you kindly suggest.

[Madiel]

Para ti La perra chica (an expression you're already familiar with).

Un abrazo

You're the one who carried on about this. Not me.

[Elgarian Redux]

And: just landed [the Boulez Ring]

Hoorah!

[Karl Henning]

Hoorah!

I've plunged right into Rhine!

[Elgarian Redux]

Very nice read, ER! Thanks...

Re. the Boulez / Chéreau Ring, I was there (in 1979). An unforgettable experience... 

Oh my goodness. What a memory to have! Fabulous.

[hopefullytrusting]

I've plunged right into Rhine!

One of the things I find ironic, at least for me, is that Boulez - the arch-post-modern - is one of my favorite conductors of late romanticism like Mahler and Wagner, lol.

[Spotted Horses]

PS I have no problem regarding Wagner as part of the musical canon.

But that is the first time I've ever seen someone try to put him in a list with Shakespeare.

...and don't forget Nobel Laureate Bob Dylan.

All of these categories and distinctions, though far from arbitrary, have fuzzy edges.

[Elgarian Redux]

I've plunged right into Rhine!

"Weia! Waga! ... Wagala weia! Walala, weiala weia!"

Or something like that ...

Go get that gold, Karl!

[Florestan]

"Weia! Waga! ... Wagala weia! Walala, weiala weia!"

That's more Tristan Tzara than Shakespeare. 

[Madiel]

One of the things I find ironic, at least for me, is that Boulez - the arch-post-modern - is one of my favorite conductors of late romanticism like Mahler and Wagner, lol.

Probably because he doesn't feel the need to drench it in excess romanticism.

If something has a tendency, it doesn't follow that the best approach is to give extra emphasis to that tendency.

Which reminds me there are a couple of versions of Mahler 8 I was going to check out.

[ritter]

Probably because he doesn't feel the need to drench it in excess romanticism.

If something has a tendency, it doesn't follow that the best approach is to give extra emphasis to that tendency.

...

In that we agree. Well put.

[71 dB]

The music is good, but I'll reiterate, they are not symphonies. I didn't get much out of it until I combined it with knowledge of the story. Even big orchestral interludes didn't register with me until I knew the action they were associated with. It's not that I revere Wagner's libretto, but the music is tied to it, for better or worse.

Your reaction may differ, of course.

Please don't assume I am an idiot or someone totally new to classical music. I have been listening to classical music for almost 30 years, just not Wagner that much! If I was a billionaire, I could just buy all Wagner opera Blu-rays out there, but I am not so I need to be smarter and more strategic about this.

[Kalevala]

I've plunged right into Rhine!

I hope that the waters are clear and that you have a good scuba mask/gear.   

K

[(poco) Sforzando]

I find it amusing that the only explanation people have for not having been completely uncritical about an experience is that I must not have experienced it properly.

After watching The Flying Dutchman, I wondered "Is it just me?", and so I went online. No. No, it isn't just me. It is not at all difficult to find people who admire the music but find the libretti deficient.

The fact is, most great opera composers sought out other people to write the words. It's a different skill.

There are also clear examples of composers who knew when they had a really good libretto to work with and when they had a poorer one but it was the best available and they had to make do. History regularly agrees with the composer. Mozart knew Da Ponte was good.

I don't wish to get into (yet another) fight with you. Some of Wagner's librettos have their deficiencies (I agree entirely about Dutchman), but he can't be denied his successes either. Meistersinger, though there are issues with the ending - i.e., the treatment of Beckmesser and the gratuitous encomium to German art - is for most of its considerable length a beautifully crafted comedy. Tristan works beautifully from start to finish. And Gotterdammerung is a powerfully dramatic conclusion to the Ring.

Some composers wrote their own libretti and did it well. Berg's adaptation of the Lulu plays for example is masterly; Tippett's libretto for The Midsummer Marriage is an incoherent mess. But even the Mozart-Da Ponte operas have some problems. Figaro is as perfect as can be, but Don Giovanni has issues especially in the second act, which is built more around Leporello than the Don and at times feels like a static set of arias.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I've plunged right into Rhine!

Don't drown! (As Hagen will do 14 hours later.)

[Spotted Horses]

Please don't assume I am an idiot or someone totally new to classical music. I have been listening to classical music for almost 30 years, just not Wagner that much! If I was a billionaire, I could just buy all Wagner opera Blu-rays out there, but I am not so I need to be smarter and more strategic about this.

I don't recall calling you an idiot.

[Karl Henning]

The music is good, but I'll reiterate, they are not symphonies. I didn't get much out of it until I combined it with knowledge of the story.

This is really apt. I found knowledge of the story insufficient, so indeed the English subtitles has transformed the experience. I've found Das Rheingold really wonderful. Without suggesting that it is boring, I found myself needing to cut out for a nap at about the 75-minute mark. More a question or aural satiety than at all of boredom. Going back now.

[(poco) Sforzando]

This is really apt. I found knowledge of the story insufficient, so indeed the English subtitles has transformed the experience. I've found Das Rheingold really wonderful. Without suggesting that it is boring, I found myself needing to cut out for a nap at about the 75-minute mark. More a question or aural satiety than at all of boredom. Going back now.

Good luck if you ever sit through all 2.5 hours in the opera house.