New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.

[Karl Henning]

But aren't moral quagmires found among all the myths? The Classical myths abound with them (think of Saturn devouring his children). Even the Old Testament abounds with them. I've no wish to embark on a detailed defence of the Ring on these grounds (even if I were capable) - but just observe that all myths tend to include some dodgy moral stuff. I assume it's part of what they are, and how they work.

Much in what you say. I suppose I need to ask myself why I find myself cringing at this or that episode in Der Ring. I am nonetheless enjoying the trip!

[Karl Henning]

On this matter, I quote what I wrote some years ago here: As for the flashbacks and reminiscences: these are not necessarily literal recaps of the previous night's action. Wotan's long monologue in Walküre Act II both reprises some of the Rheingold story and provides much new "information." But more important, in this monologue Wotan re-interprets and synthesizes his reactions to the action in a new way, having been outsmarted by Fricka when he realizes his grand scheme to use Siegmund to reclaim the ring is doomed to failure because Siegmund is not truly a free agent. And this is true of virtually all of Wagner's lengthy retellings of events we've seen the night before: they are not present to take up space or waste the audience's time, but because they provide opportunities for a character to understand his or her prior experiences in a wholly new and significant way.

Point taken, yet as John Cleese once upbraided Terry Jones: That's as may be, it's still a frog.

[Karl Henning]

For me, the Wagnerian opera summa are Parsifal and Die Meistersinger.

We might say that it was the exquisite Prelude to Parsifal which has brought me to this pass. From thence I had to try the complete opera which (on CD even without referencing the libretto) I found marvelous. In hindsight, at that point I was doomed, and eventual curiosity in Der Ring might well have been inevitable. Die Meistersinger I have long looked upon as unfinished business I must wind up. Its Prelude was among the first classical music I came to love, long since.

[Karl Henning]

A fanatical Wagnerite calling other people out for their alleged "smug convictions"... Risum teneatis, amici?

You must appreciate Wagner in the way I do, and think of his work as I do, are iconic vices of the smug Wagnerite. I have been acquainted with more than one authoritarian Wagnerite, which is one reason why getting to know the actual work has been such a low priority for me for so long. And why I have so little regard for Spin's self-importance. I am appreciating those fans of W. who allow one one's own path.

[Elgarian Redux]

Much in what you say. I suppose I need to ask myself why I find myself cringing at this or that episode in Der Ring. I am nonetheless enjoying the trip!

I think I'd say that we should expect myths to do this to us. I think of the monstrosity of Hades carrying off the child Persephone into the Underworld. I think of Demeter throwing a tantrum about it - a tantrum that causes the entire Earth to be blighted for half the year. Myths often make us cringe. So the question to resolve, perhaps, is whether the source of the cringeworthiness lies in Wagner, or in the myth.

I don't really think about the issue any more. I just metaphorically throw my hat in the air and go for the ride, as I think you're doing. I regard myths to be, above all, experienced, rather than analysed.

 

[71 dB]

You must appreciate Wagner in the way I do, and think of his work as I do, are iconic vices of the smug Wagnerite. I have been acquainted with more than one authoritarian Wagnerite, which is one reason why getting to know the actual work has been such a low priority for me for so long. And why I have so little regard for Spin's self-importance. I am appreciating those fans of W. who allow one one's own path.

I have also felt that the Wagnerites aren't the most inclusive or humble people on Earth, but that's just me and my feelings that are not the same thing as facts...

[Karl Henning]

I think I'd say that we should expect myths to do this to us. I think of the monstrosity of Hades carrying off the child Persephone into the Underworld. I think of Demeter throwing a tantrum about it - a tantrum that causes the entire Earth to be blighted for half the year. Myths often make us cringe. So the question to resolve, perhaps, is whether the source of the cringeworthiness lies in Wagner, or in the myth.

I don't really think about the issue any more. I just metaphorically throw my hat in the air and go for the ride, as I think you're doing. I regard myths to be, above all, experienced, rather than analysed.

 

Aye. I did appreciate that, even as I was turning the Siegmund/Sieglinde "the brother and sister who love each other, or are they Narcissus/Narcissa really just in love with their own sweet selfs" incestuous love-knot slowly on the mental lathe, Fricka raised the point of incest as she confronted Wotan. In fact, Fricka arguing with Wotan is probably one of my favorite bits.

[Wanderer]

...carrying off the child Persephone

 

Persephone was not a child, but a maiden (παρθένος, κόρη).

[AnotherSpin]

You must appreciate Wagner in the way I do, and think of his work as I do, are iconic vices of the smug Wagnerite. I have been acquainted with more than one authoritarian Wagnerite, which is one reason why getting to know the actual work has been such a low priority for me for so long. And why I have so little regard for Spin's self-importance. I am appreciating those fans of W. who allow one one's own path.

It's always fascinating to read about myself. Turns out, I'm a Wagnerite. I've practically grown in my own eyes. I don't recall insisting that anyone here swear allegiance to Wagner. Could you perhaps provide some links to such demands in my comments?

On the contrary, I remember how the slightest deviation from the party line in evaluating the works of a certain composer Sh. provoked torrents of abuse in my direction, insults, and demands to shut up immediately. If only it were like that with Wagner.

[Florestan]

I have also felt that the Wagnerites aren't the most inclusive or humble people on Earth

Wie der Herr, so's Gescherr...

[San Antone]

Sailing along Die Walküre now. I'd kind of forgotten what a moral quagmire Der Ring is. I guess the willing suspension of moral distaste is practically a prerequisite. Sumptuous music, to be sure.

I remember being put off Walküre by the incest - but then I thought about it, and realized they fell in love prior to knowing absolutely they were siblings.  It was only after Sieglinge drugged her husband which allowed her and Siegmund to talk about their pasts that they begin to realize who they are to each other.

Of course they go on,  I suppose, because they are past the point of no return.

In any event, Die Walküre is my favorite opera of the Ring, and I won't let this issue turn me away from it.  Wagner's plots are so hyperbolic and over the top in so many ways, I take in the overall story arc but mostly listen for the music.

Oh, and I am definitely not a Wagnerite. 

[Karl Henning]

I remember being put off Walküre by the incest - but then I thought about it, and realized they fell in love prior to knowing absolutely they were siblings.  It was only after Sieglinge drugged her husband which allowed her and Siegmund to talk about their pasts that they begin to realize who they are to each other.

Of course they go on,  I suppose, because they are past the point of no return.

In any event, Die Walküre is my favorite opera of the Ring, and I won't let this issue turn me away from it.  Wagner's plots are so hyperbolic and over the top in so many ways, I take in the overall story arc but mostly listen for the music.

Oh, and I am definitely not a Wagnerite. 

Interesting. No, I'm in for a penny (or, several pennies) so I'm morally prepared to let the yarn be what it is. And you & Larry (among others) are discussing rather than pontificating.