New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.

[Karl Henning]

But aren't moral quagmires found among all the myths? The Classical myths abound with them (think of Saturn devouring his children). Even the Old Testament abounds with them. I've no wish to embark on a detailed defence of the Ring on these grounds (even if I were capable) - but just observe that all myths tend to include some dodgy moral stuff. I assume it's part of what they are, and how they work.

Much in what you say. I suppose I need to ask myself why I find myself cringing at this or that episode in Der Ring. I am nonetheless enjoying the trip!

[Karl Henning]

On this matter, I quote what I wrote some years ago here: As for the flashbacks and reminiscences: these are not necessarily literal recaps of the previous night's action. Wotan's long monologue in Walküre Act II both reprises some of the Rheingold story and provides much new "information." But more important, in this monologue Wotan re-interprets and synthesizes his reactions to the action in a new way, having been outsmarted by Fricka when he realizes his grand scheme to use Siegmund to reclaim the ring is doomed to failure because Siegmund is not truly a free agent. And this is true of virtually all of Wagner's lengthy retellings of events we've seen the night before: they are not present to take up space or waste the audience's time, but because they provide opportunities for a character to understand his or her prior experiences in a wholly new and significant way.

Point taken, yet as John Cleese once upbraided Terry Jones: That's as may be, it's still a frog.

[Karl Henning]

For me, the Wagnerian opera summa are Parsifal and Die Meistersinger.

We might say that it was the exquisite Prelude to Parsifal which has brought me to this pass. From thence I had to try the complete opera which (on CD even without referencing the libretto) I found marvelous. In hindsight, at that point I was doomed, and eventual curiosity in Der Ring might well have been inevitable. Die Meistersinger I have long looked upon as unfinished business I must wind up. Its Prelude was among the first classical music I came to love, long since.

[Karl Henning]

A fanatical Wagnerite calling other people out for their alleged "smug convictions"... Risum teneatis, amici?

You must appreciate Wagner in the way I do, and think of his work as I do, are iconic vices of the smug Wagnerite. I have been acquainted with more than one authoritarian Wagnerite, which is one reason why getting to know the actual work has been such a low priority for me for so long. And why I have so little regard for Spin's self-importance. I am appreciating those fans of W. who allow one one's own path.

[Elgarian Redux]

Much in what you say. I suppose I need to ask myself why I find myself cringing at this or that episode in Der Ring. I am nonetheless enjoying the trip!

I think I'd say that we should expect myths to do this to us. I think of the monstrosity of Hades carrying off Persephone into the Underworld. I think of Demeter throwing a tantrum about it - a tantrum that causes the entire Earth to be blighted for half the year. Myths often make us cringe. So the question to resolve, perhaps, is whether the source of the cringeworthiness lies in Wagner, or in the myth.

I don't really think about the issue any more. I just metaphorically throw my hat in the air and go for the ride, as I think you're doing. I regard myths to be, above all, experienced, rather than analysed.

 

[71 dB]

You must appreciate Wagner in the way I do, and think of his work as I do, are iconic vices of the smug Wagnerite. I have been acquainted with more than one authoritarian Wagnerite, which is one reason why getting to know the actual work has been such a low priority for me for so long. And why I have so little regard for Spin's self-importance. I am appreciating those fans of W. who allow one one's own path.

I have also felt that the Wagnerites aren't the most inclusive or humble people on Earth, but that's just me and my feelings that are not the same thing as facts...

[Karl Henning]

I think I'd say that we should expect myths to do this to us. I think of the monstrosity of Hades carrying off the child Persephone into the Underworld. I think of Demeter throwing a tantrum about it - a tantrum that causes the entire Earth to be blighted for half the year. Myths often make us cringe. So the question to resolve, perhaps, is whether the source of the cringeworthiness lies in Wagner, or in the myth.

I don't really think about the issue any more. I just metaphorically throw my hat in the air and go for the ride, as I think you're doing. I regard myths to be, above all, experienced, rather than analysed.

 

Aye. I did appreciate that, even as I was turning the Siegmund/Sieglinde "the brother and sister who love each other, or are they Narcissus/Narcissa really just in love with their own sweet selfs" incestuous love-knot slowly on the mental lathe, Fricka raised the point of incest as she confronted Wotan. In fact, Fricka arguing with Wotan is probably one of my favorite bits.

[Wanderer]

...carrying off the child Persephone

 

Persephone was not a child, but a maiden (παρθένος, κόρη).

[AnotherSpin]

You must appreciate Wagner in the way I do, and think of his work as I do, are iconic vices of the smug Wagnerite. I have been acquainted with more than one authoritarian Wagnerite, which is one reason why getting to know the actual work has been such a low priority for me for so long. And why I have so little regard for Spin's self-importance. I am appreciating those fans of W. who allow one one's own path.

It's always fascinating to read about myself. Turns out, I'm a Wagnerite. I've practically grown in my own eyes. I don't recall insisting that anyone here swear allegiance to Wagner. Could you perhaps provide some links to such demands in my comments?

On the contrary, I remember how the slightest deviation from the party line in evaluating the works of a certain composer Sh. provoked torrents of abuse in my direction, insults, and demands to shut up immediately. If only it were like that with Wagner.

[Florestan]

I have also felt that the Wagnerites aren't the most inclusive or humble people on Earth

Wie der Herr, so's Gescherr...

[San Antone]

Sailing along Die Walküre now. I'd kind of forgotten what a moral quagmire Der Ring is. I guess the willing suspension of moral distaste is practically a prerequisite. Sumptuous music, to be sure.

I remember being put off Walküre by the incest - but then I thought about it, and realized they fell in love prior to knowing absolutely they were siblings.  It was only after Sieglinge drugged her husband which allowed her and Siegmund to talk about their pasts that they begin to realize who they are to each other.

Of course they go on,  I suppose, because they are past the point of no return.

In any event, Die Walküre is my favorite opera of the Ring, and I won't let this issue turn me away from it.  Wagner's plots are so hyperbolic and over the top in so many ways, I take in the overall story arc but mostly listen for the music.

Oh, and I am definitely not a Wagnerite. 

[Karl Henning]

I remember being put off Walküre by the incest - but then I thought about it, and realized they fell in love prior to knowing absolutely they were siblings.  It was only after Sieglinge drugged her husband which allowed her and Siegmund to talk about their pasts that they begin to realize who they are to each other.

Of course they go on,  I suppose, because they are past the point of no return.

In any event, Die Walküre is my favorite opera of the Ring, and I won't let this issue turn me away from it.  Wagner's plots are so hyperbolic and over the top in so many ways, I take in the overall story arc but mostly listen for the music.

Oh, and I am definitely not a Wagnerite. 

Interesting. No, I'm in for a penny (or, several pennies) so I'm morally prepared to let the yarn be what it is. And you & Larry (among others) are discussing rather than pontificating. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

I remember being put off Walküre by the incest - but then I thought about it, and realized they fell in love prior to knowing absolutely they were siblings.  It was only after Sieglinge drugged her husband which allowed her and Siegmund to talk about their pasts that they begin to realize who they are to each other.

Of course they go on,  I suppose, because they are past the point of no return.

Nothing to stop them from going on once they realize their incestuous relationship. They could say, "hey sis, we can't do this!" But on the contrary they welcome the incest: "Braut und Schwester bist du dem Bruder - so blühe denn Wälsungen-Blut!"

[San Antone]

Nothing to stop them from going on once they realize their incestuous relationship. They could say, "hey sis, we can't do this!" But on the contrary they welcome the incest: "Braut und Schwester bist du dem Bruder - so blühe denn Wälsungen-Blut!"

I don't argue with any of that.  But as has been posted previously, myths often contain what appear (on the surface) morally questionable information.  I could be wrong, not being Joseph Campbell, but my understanding of the purpose of myths is to explain human psychology, complete with inexplicable urges, and strange (to us) romantic unions: woman and swan; mother and the son who murdered his father, etc., to account for hidden aspects of ourselves.

[Elgarian Redux]

Persephone was not a child, but a maiden (παρθένος, κόρη).

Thank you for the correction. I've amended my original post.

As you say, Kore does indeed mean 'maiden'. We aren't told her age, as I recall, - though she is clearly young, playing in the meadow and gathering flowers, just before her abduction.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I don't argue with any of that.  But as has been posted previously, myths often contain what appear (on the surface) morally questionable information.  I could be wrong, not being Joseph Campbell, but my understanding of the purpose of myths is to explain human psychology, complete with inexplicable urges, and strange (to us) romantic unions: woman and swan; mother and the son who murdered his father, etc., to account for hidden aspects of ourselves.

Good point.

[AnotherSpin]

I expect this new comment will once again rouse the same meagre yet indefatigable little bunch of my detractors, who never seem to tire of their noble mission. Still, I shall say this.

In European mythological thought, particularly in the works of Karl Kerényi and Carl Jung, the incest motif, such as the brother–sister union in the Volsunga Saga that inspired Wagner's Die Walküre, is understood symbolically rather than literally. It expresses the union of opposites within the psyche, a process of renewal and transformation that leads to the emergence of a more complete self.

Kerényi regarded such mythic unions as giving rise to the "divine child," a symbol of indestructible life and spiritual regeneration. Jung interpreted these motifs as expressions of psychic rebirth: the return of energy to its unconscious source to create new consciousness. In Die Walküre, the love of Siegmund and Sieglinde, twins born of Wotan, follows this pattern. Their child Siegfried embodies the liberated hero, born to renew a corrupted and decaying world, which to my mind is the central motif of the entire cycle.

[Elgarian Redux]

Kerényi regarded such mythic unions as giving rise to the "divine child," a symbol of indestructible life and spiritual regeneration. Jung interpreted these motifs as expressions of psychic rebirth: the return of energy to its unconscious source to create new consciousness. In Die Walküre, the love of Siegmund and Sieglinde, twins born of Wotan, follows this pattern. Their child Siegfried embodies the liberated hero, born to renew a corrupted and decaying world, which to my mind is the central motif of the entire cycle.

I think this is very important. To drive it home, it's helpful to consider Kerényi's further words on the matter. 'All the most ancient mythological ideas', he writes, concern:

the revelation of something still unopened, like a bud ... Mythologically, the idea is embodied in miraculous 'primal beings'. ... Zeus, Apollo, Dionysus, Hermes, Asklepios, Heracles – all may be regarded as having evolved out of a mythological primordial child, who originally comprised both begetter and begotten. [My emphasis]*

The point being that Siegfried is another aspect of the mythic archetype. His origins lie far deeper than Wagner, as does the cause of any modern unease about them.


*[From C.J. Jung and C. Kerényi, Essays on a Science of Mythology. The Myth of the Divine Child and the Mysteries of Eleusis (New York: Bollingen, 1949, 1959, repr. Chichester: Princeton, 1993), p.105.]

[AnotherSpin]

I think this is very important. To drive it home, it's helpful to consider Kerényi's further words on the matter. 'All the most ancient mythological ideas', he writes, concern:

The point being that Siegfried is another aspect of the mythic archetype. His origins lie far deeper than Wagner, as does the cause of any modern unease about them.


*[From C.J. Jung and C. Kerényi, Essays on a Science of Mythology. The Myth of the Divine Child and the Mysteries of Eleusis (New York: Bollingen, 1949, 1959, repr. Chichester: Princeton, 1993), p.105.]

I'd say you're probably see it right. I reckon Wagner was deliberately leaning on that timeless tradition, pushing back against what they called progress: money's rule and all the trendy modern thrills. No wonder he kept circling back to those ancient stories.

[Karl Henning]

My teaching assistantship at Buffalo was the Music History for non-majors, and the professor's prime example for Wagner was the closing scene for Die Walküre, so I've known where this was headed. Now, having seen the whole, I find it magnificent.