New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.

[Jo498]

It's explicit said that Siegfried is supposed to be the free hero, "freier als ich, der Gott" (and also more free than Siegmund). That he falls prey to the intrigue and thus fails in a sense (or maybe the sacrifice is part of his purpose) is another story.
Obviously, several different mythical tropes and archetypes are mixed together. (E.g. in the later medieval, somewhat christianized version there is no kinship between Siegfried and Brünnhilde, she's just that indomitable warrior princess from afar.)
Incest is not necessarily negative in myths even though to my knowledge European/Norse/Indoeuropean traditions didn't have royal sibling marriages like the Egyptians or Inca.

[Karl Henning]

However symbolic you may wish to be, I see no reason to discount the literal interpretation. I doubt most operagoers would see the Siegmund-Sieglinde union as only symbolic: "Oh, so brother and sister had a baby together? That's incest!" "Yes, but it's symbolic incest." "Oh, then it's all right." And of course we can be sure that Siegfried and Brünnhilde got it on after the curtain falls down following the close of his eponymous opera, and since she's his grandfather's daughter that would make her his aunt, pretty incestuous too though no one mentions that inconvenient fact.

As for your statement that "Their child Siegfried embodies the liberated hero, born to renew a corrupted and decaying world, which to my mind is the central motif of the entire cycle," I would certainly agree that "renewing a corrupted and decaying world is the central motif," but is Siegfried really the "liberated hero"? Certainly Siggy has no ambition to wield the power conferred on him by the ring, but he still falls prey to the ring's curse by committing two murders in Act Two of Siegfried, and after drinking Hagen's potion, he spends much of Götterdämmerung not as a hero but as Hagen's pawn.

It's really not Siegfried but the former Valkyrie and now fully human Brünnhilde who redeems the world at the close of the cycle, sacrificing herself and restoring the ring to the Rhinemaidens while Walhall goes up in flames and Hagen is drowned in the Rhine.

And so regardless of any European mythological thought, I don't think the facts of Wagner's story bear out your theories.

Anticipating that Siegfried snuffs it is my current Schadenfreude. 

[Mapman]

It's long enough since I did any reading about Der Ring, that I'd clean forgot Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune, so the freshness of this episode is an added bonus.

I'm not sure if you've gotten that far yet, but the transition to morning after the night-time scene with Hagen and Alberich contains one of my favorite uses of bass clarinet.

(When I first heard the Ring, I was fascinated by a website that explained the musical relationships within various groups of Leitmotifs. I've unfortunately not been able to find that particular site since then.)

[(poco) Sforzando]

I haven't any particular theories on the matter. My post was merely a comment on the preceding posts by other participants.

As for symbolism in operatic plots, and not just Wagner's, it is undoubtedly present; to argue otherwise would be rather odd. After all, opera is not a documentary film.

But you quoted those theorists with an implied endorsement. And while I don't discount the validity of symbolism, I don't think the theories you mentioned really fit the Ring.

[Karl Henning]

Wait! Opera isn't documentary?!

[(poco) Sforzando]

It's explicit said that Siegfried is supposed to be the free hero, "freier als ich, der Gott" (and also more free than Siegmund). That he falls prey to the intrigue and thus fails in a sense (or maybe the sacrifice is part of his purpose) is another story.
Obviously, several different mythical tropes and archetypes are mixed together. (E.g. in the later medieval, somewhat christianized version there is no kinship between Siegfried and Brünnhilde, she's just that indomitable warrior princess from afar.)
Incest is not necessarily negative in myths even though to my knowledge European/Norse/Indoeuropean traditions didn't have royal sibling marriages like the Egyptians or Inca.

"Freier als ich" is what Wotan says at the end of Walküre, before Siegfried is even born. But children have a way of growing up differently from our predictions. No doubt some regard Siegfried as a heroic individual, but we have to judge him by his actions rather than what others say about him, and which of his actions are truly heroic? If anything, Siegfried generally comes across less as a "divine child" and more as a thug and a bully. As for incest, the relationship between the twins is surely negative in Fricka's mind, though not Wotan's. And the Brünnhilde-Siegfried incest is not even mentioned, though once you think about it I don't see how it can be denied.

[Karl Henning]

... a thug and a bully and an ingrate, indeed. At times, I think, "Siegfried's a hero: the script says so."  Brünnhilde/Siegfried incest. Well, yes, now you mention it.

[JBS]

... a thug and a bully and an ingrate, indeed. At times, I think, "Siegfried's a hero: the script says so."  Brünnhilde/Siegfried incest. Well, yes, now you mention it.

To quote Anna Russell

She's his aunt, you know.

[JBS]

Siegfried's special characteristic is being fear-less in the literal sense. He doesn't know how to fear.
That's the quality that lets him walk through the Magic Fire in the first place, what prompts Wotan to say "he's more free than I", and leads him to walk straight ahead into situations that would make other people stop and think.

[Karl Henning]

To quote Anna Russell

She's his aunt, you know.

Gosh, I haven't heard that in ages. Well, being a Norn ain't what it used to be, either. 

[Karl Henning]

Siegfried's special characteristic is being fear-less in the literal sense. He doesn't know how to fear.
That's the quality that lets him walk through the Magic Fire in the first place, what prompts Wotan to say "he's more free than I", and leads him to walk straight ahead into situations that would make other people stop and think.

Probably what I like best about Siegfried's scripting is the joke Wagner manages to make of this. Can you teach me fear? How about you? Unwittingly (?) underscoring how it's not so much a virtue, as naïveté.

[Karl Henning]

Probably what I like best about Siegfried's scripting is the joke Wagner manages to make of this. Can you teach me fear? How about you? Unwittingly (?) underscoring how it's not so much a virtue, as naïveté.

Sure, I don't have the sense not to touch a hot stove....

[AnotherSpin]

But you quoted those theorists with an implied endorsement. And while I don't discount the validity of symbolism, I don't think the theories you mentioned really fit the Ring.

I cited those authors not to endorse incest as such, but to shed light on its symbolic meaning, surely that much is clear. To accuse Wagner of promoting incest (as though alleged antisemitism were not indictment enough) seems rather futile. He did not advocate it, but drew on mythic precedents in which sibling unions signify divine or heroic destiny. The motif pervades mythology: Zeus and Hera, Osiris and Isis, Izanagi and Izanami, Cronus and Rhea, Oedipus and Jocasta, Lot and his daughters, Abraham and Sarah, and the catalogue could go on indefinitely.

Some people like to delve into the subtleties of the libretto's meaning, and that's perfectly fine. Everyone is entitled to find in it what they are prepared to find. For me, the music outweighs it by a ratio of one to ninety-nine. Yes, I knew that Siegmund and Sieglinde were brother and sister, but what sounds in my memory is the theme of their love, not the thought of incest.

[71 dB]

Finally I finished Meistersinger. I definitely like this.    Maybe I am more of a Wagnerite than I have previously admitted to myself? Then again, this is probably one of my favorite operas by Wagner. I need to revisit Tristan und Isolde for comparison.

Wagner's music has always felt similar to Elgar (who was of course heavily influenced by Wagner among other composers) to me. To me Elgar's music (oratorios are naturally closest to Wagner's operas) sounds like more sophisticated version of Wagner.

[Karl Henning]

Finally I finished Meistersinger. I definitely like this.

Excellent! When I finish Götterdämmerung Meistersinger is my next destination. If you're game to try Der Ring, I have entirely enjoyed this Boulez/Chéreau production.

[Lisztianwagner]

Finally I finished Meistersinger. I definitely like this.    Maybe I am more of a Wagnerite than I have previously admitted to myself? Then again, this is probably one of my favorite operas by Wagner. I need to revisit Tristan und Isolde for comparison.

Wagner's music has always felt similar to Elgar (who was of course heavily influenced by Wagner among other composers) to me. To me Elgar's music (oratorios are naturally closest to Wagner's operas) sounds like more sophisticated version of Wagner.

So glad you enjoyed Wagner's Meistersinger, which recording have you listened if I may ask?

Excellent! When I finish Götterdämmerung Meistersinger is my next destination. If you're game to try Der Ring, I have entirely enjoyed this Boulez/Chéreau production.

I agree the Boulez/Chéreau is quite beautiful, Levine/Schenk is another excellent production, more inspired to the myth.

[Jo498]

It's not clear if Fricka is bothered by the incest but certainly by the adultery.

The big opposition in the Ring that survived the transmutation from the socialist-anarchist to the pseudobuddhist Schopenhauerian Wagner seems "treaties" vs. "freedom". I am not sure if this is really a sound philosophy at any stage because the problem with treaties in the Ring is almost always with unfair ones or those that are entered into with the intention to break them (like Wotan vs. giants), so it's a bit odd to blame laws and treaties in general for creating unfree relationships.

Nevertheless, I think there is a point to be made that Fricka forces Wotan to enforce an unjust treaty (Sieglinde had been abducted and sold to Hunding against her will ("er freite ein Weib, das ungeminnt Schächer ihm schenkten zur Frau")) whereas the sibling's incestual union follows nature/freedom (as shown by the fact that Sieglinde apparently had no child from Hunding but the incest creates a superhero). There is no hint at all in Wagner that the twin's incest is seen as a problem.
Still, Wotan has to punish the adultery, thus his first try for a free hero fails, the sword is broken by the Spear of treaties.

In (or before) "Siegfried" Wotan apparently realised that the only way out of the old web of unjust treaties is his own abdication; from Lord of Treaties he becomes the rather passive Wanderer, Siegfried's reforged sword (by himself, unlike Siegmund who got it as gift) breaks the Spear. So here Siegfried fulfils the condition to be stronger/freer than the god (who admittedly has become a shadow of his former self as Wanderer).

So far I find this pretty plausible. Then, with Goetterdaemmerung we get another round of dubious treaties vs. freedom and of course, the "original sin", the "rape of nature" (stealing gold, cursing love and forging the Ring) has not yet been resolved.

[71 dB]

So glad you enjoyed Wagner's Meistersinger, which recording have you listened if I may ask?

Wolfgang Sawallisch.

[71 dB]

Excellent! When I finish Götterdämmerung Meistersinger is my next destination. If you're game to try Der Ring, I have entirely enjoyed this Boulez/Chéreau production.

For now I concentrate on Meistersinger. I need to get a Blu-ray of it and get to know the libretto/story. This is over 4 hours of music! My next Wagner opera in the (distant ?) future will probably be Parsival.

[Karl Henning]

For now I concentrate on Meistersinger. I need to get a Blu-ray of it and get to know the libretto/story. This is over 4 hours of music! My next Wagner opera in the (distant ?) future will probably be Parsival.

Understood. Parsifal is a good choice.