New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.

[(poco) Sforzando]

It's not clear if Fricka is bothered by the incest but certainly by the adultery.

Mir schaudert das Herz,
es schwindelt mein Hirn:
bräutlich umfing die Schwester der Bruder!
Wann ward es erlebt,
daß leiblich Geschwister sich liebten?

I shudder at heart,
my reason doth faint,
brother embraced as bride his own sister!
When was it e'er known
that brother and sister were lovers?

Clear to me.

There is no hint at all in Wagner that the twin's incest is seen as a problem.

Yes there is, at least in Fricka's mind.

[Karl Henning]

Mir schaudert das Herz,
es schwindelt mein Hirn:
bräutlich umfing die Schwester der Bruder!
Wann ward es erlebt,
daß leiblich Geschwister sich liebten?

I shudder at heart,
my reason doth faint,
brother embraced as bride his own sister!
When was it e'er known
that brother and sister were lovers?

Clear to me.

Thanks. That's how I thought I read the subtitles. Let's pass for the moment on the "sanctity of the wedding vow" when it's a matter of rape (using the word in its broader sense.)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Some people like to delve into the subtleties of the libretto's meaning, and that's perfectly fine. Everyone is entitled to find in it what they are prepared to find. For me, the music outweighs it by a ratio of one to ninety-nine. Yes, I knew that Siegmund and Sieglinde were brother and sister, but what sounds in my memory is the theme of their love, not the thought of incest.

Entirely agreed. Noone would care about the Ring's symbolic meanings were it not for the genius of the music.

I cited those authors not to endorse incest as such, but to shed light on its symbolic meaning, surely that much is clear. To accuse Wagner of promoting incest (as though alleged antisemitism were not indictment enough) seems rather futile. He did not advocate it, but drew on mythic precedents in which sibling unions signify divine or heroic destiny. The motif pervades mythology: Zeus and Hera, Osiris and Isis, Izanagi and Izanami, Cronus and Rhea, Oedipus and Jocasta, Lot and his daughters, Abraham and Sarah, and the catalogue could go on indefinitely.

Each case on its own merits. Oedipus and Jocasta were son and mother, not siblings, and their union (preceded by Oedipus' slaying of his father Laius) was what brought on the plague to Thebes. No divine or heroic destiny here. The sin of murder and incest is only expiated when Jocasta kills herself, and Oedipus blinds himself and accepts exile from Thebes.

[Karl Henning]

To accuse Wagner of promoting incest ....

Oh, has anyone done this? Man, the things i miss....

[Karl Henning]

Noone would care about the Ring's symbolic meanings were it not for the genius of the music.

Having at last finished Götterdämmerung, and therefore Der Ring for the first time, the music is an overwhelmingly magnificent experience. The book, while I will not deride it as rubbish, strikes me as kind of a lukewarm mess. Without the music to sustain the endeavor (which it does, like billy-o) I'd be tempted to speculate that the sands of time would have buried these dramas, and we'd consider it a mercy. Bottom line: when the Levine DVDs land, chances are high that I'll wade right back in.

[AnotherSpin]

Entirely agreed. Noone would care about the Ring's symbolic meanings were it not for the genius of the music.

Each case on its own merits. Oedipus and Jocasta were son and mother, not siblings, and their union (preceded by Oedipus' slaying of his father Laius) was what brought on the plague to Thebes. No divine or heroic destiny here. The sin of murder and incest is only expiated when Jocasta kills herself, and Oedipus blinds himself and accepts exile from Thebes.

You quite forgot to point out that, among the notorious incest cases I mentioned, Lot and his daughters were not, in fact, siblings.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You quite forgot to point out that, among the notorious incest cases I mentioned, Lot and his daughters were not, in fact, siblings.

"Great thing of us forgot!" to quote from King Lear. How could I have missed such a thing?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Having at last finished Götterdämmerung, and therefore Der Ring for the first time, the music is an overwhelmingly magnificent experience. The book, while I will not deride it as rubbish, strikes me as kind of a lukewarm mess. Without the music to sustain the endeavor (which it does, like billy-o) I'd be tempted to speculate that the sands of time would have buried these dramas, and we'd consider it a mercy. Bottom line: when the Levine DVDs land, chances are high that I'll wade right back in.

I would agree with all this. And then you can move on to nutcase productions like the Copenhagen Ring and Bayreuth 2022:
https://www.wagneropera.net/articles/articles-bayreuth-2022-valentin-schwarz-sam-goodyear-ring.htm

[AnotherSpin]

"Great thing of us forgot!" to quote from King Lear. How could I have missed such a thing?

The important thing is, you didn't miss pointing out that Oedipus and Jocasta weren't siblings. Otherwise, I was totally confused.

[T. D.]

I would agree with all this. And then you can move on to nutcase productions like the Copenhagen Ring and Bayreuth 2022:
https://www.wagneropera.net/articles/articles-bayreuth-2022-valentin-schwarz-sam-goodyear-ring.htm

[Apologies for slight off-topicness]

Good heavens! That Ring seems even more ghastly than the bizarro 2019 Tannhäuser.

I am not opposed to avant-garde productions, but sometimes Regietheater becomes overly extravagant IMO.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The important thing is, you didn't miss pointing out that Oedipus and Jocasta weren't siblings. Otherwise, I was totally confused.

Oh good, I'm so glad we got that straightened out. Abraham and Sarah were not siblings either, so we're all right.

[AnotherSpin]

Oh good, I'm so glad we got that straightened out. Abraham and Sarah were not siblings either, so we're all right.

They were half-siblings.

[Elgarian Redux]

Having at last finished Götterdämmerung, and therefore Der Ring for the first time, the music is an overwhelmingly magnificent experience. The book, while I will not deride it as rubbish, strikes me as kind of a lukewarm mess. Without the music to sustain the endeavor (which it does, like billy-o) I'd be tempted to speculate that the sands of time would have buried these dramas, and we'd consider it a mercy. Bottom line: when the Levine DVDs land, chances are high that I'll wade right back in.

I've found over the years that my various objections (eg Siegfried is a boor) to plot/drama/characters have mattered less and less. This goes hand in hand with accepting the underlying myth as being more important than the details of Wagner's libretto. One of the points about a myth is that it seems to make its significance felt almost regardless of how it's told - the barest statements about a myth seem able to convey its power.

So for me personally (I am not promoting any theory, and indeed I don't find detailed plot analysis especially helpful) it's the welding of the (tremendous) music with the myth that makes Der Ring the overwhelming experience that it is.

I think its fabulous that your experiment has been so successful, Karl.

[ritter]

So for me personally (I am not promoting any theory, and indeed I don't find detailed plot analysis especially helpful) it's the welding of the (tremendous) music with the myth that makes Der Ring the overwhelming experience that it is.

Yes, and this is what IMHO puts Wagner in a paramount position among great dramatists of all time. The texts without the music might be considered nothing special, but the complete product, text and music, is unbeatable.

[Elgarian Redux]

Yes, and this is what IMHO puts Wagner in a paramount position among great dramatists of all time. The texts without the music might be considered nothing special, but the complete product, text and music, is unbeatable.

John Ruskin has some things to say about unity in a work of art that might be helpful. He's talking about paintings here, but the principles apply to all art, I imagine: 'It is the necessary connection of all the forms and colours, down to the last touch, which constitutes great or inventive work, separated from all common work by an impassable gulf.' (from Modern Painters vol 5, 'The task of the least')

His point is that we may feel that there are parts of a painting that displease us, but those parts must be considered, not separately, but in the context of the whole. The theme is a broadly encompassing one: that of the unity of great art. I find it helpful to consider that what may seem unacceptable in isolation, nevertheless has its essential place in the whole. And Der Ring, as you say, is the result of a colossal attempt to build a unifying whole from music, drama, and myth.

[71 dB]

Parsifal is a good choice.

It should be. After all, it is not named Farcical. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

It should be. After all, it is not named Farcical. 

It is actually my least favorite of the later Wagner operas. But the recording to have is Knappertsbusch 1962 in stereo from Bayreuth.

[AnotherSpin]

I love Parsifal and agree with the recommendation of Knappertsbusch's 1962 recording in stereo on Philips/Decca. Many would probably name it as the top choice. Still, in the streaming age, when you don't have to pick one and pay for it, Kna's final 1964 performance on Orfeo is worth a listen too, as is his early 1951 recording on Decca. Each of the three has its own strengths. That said, newcomers should know that Kna's versions are on the leisurely side. If you prefer something a bit more brisk with more modern sound quality, Boulez is a good choice, as is Levine from the early 90s. Karajan is an excellent option too.