What is it?

[jochanaan]

Some examples of that, please. 

(at the risk of causing intense gastronomic distress to veteran contributors here) "Plop, plop, fizz, fizz..."

[Florestan]

Never heard about that. What is it?

[Karl Henning]

Never heard about that. What is it?

It doesn't matter 

A jingle for a stomach discomfort remedy.

[AdamFromWashington]

Never heard about that. What is it?

A relief, of course. 

[jochanaan]

A relief, of course. 

Only when the commercial stops playing.

[Mandryka]

The Nichomachean Ethics matters because it contains some ideas which make you think about how you act and what you are. That's a paradigm of mattering.  Some music is like that, because it encodes references and reflections on profound texts. J S Bach's chorale preludes are an example, because of their relation to Luther's commentaries and the church chorales they're based on.  And maybe so is History of Photography in Sound.

Another way things can matter is that they offer consolation and distraction.  I suppose that's why some drugs matter - pain killers etc. And some music has the capacity to cheer you up, distract you from troubles. I'm thinking of things like Dandrieu suites, Haydn trios, a lot of Dvorak.

A third way something can matter is that it offers people an answer to the question "what is the meaning of life?", and so helps them go on from one day to the next. Some religion is like this, with stories of paradise, grace etc. And I think some music suggests a comforting and ineffable world - so people can aspire to knowing that world better, being in it more securely. I'm thinking of things like big romantic adagios like in Mahler symphonies.

A fourth way is that music can be a model, a picture, of our mind. And so hearing it is like having a mirror held up to ourselves. And that can be both shocking and comforting, because it lets us know that we are not alone, our nature is shared. I'm thinking of the way the emotional states change so realistically in a piece like Schumann's first piano sonata, or Schoenberg's late string trio, or indeed some Chopin nocturnes and Mahler 9/i. Furtwangler was good at bringing out this aspect of Brahms and Beethoven.

There is a fifth way, and it has to do with love and the unknowability of pieces like op 131. But I need more time to think about it.

[Florestan]

Nicely put.

[EigenUser]

The Nichomachean Ethics matters because it contains some ideas which make you think about how you act and what you are. That's a paradigm of mattering.  Some music is like that, because it encodes references and reflections on profound texts. J S Bach's chorale preludes are an example, because of their relation to Luther's commentaries and the church chorales they're based on.  And maybe so is History of Photography in Sound.

Another way things can matter is that they offer consolation and distraction.  I suppose that's why some drugs matter - pain killers etc. And some music has the capacity to cheer you up, distract you from troubles. I'm thinking of things like Dandrieu suites, Haydn trios, a lot of Dvorak.

A third way something can matter is that it offers people an answer to the question "what is the meaning of life?", and so helps them go on from one day to the next. Some religion is like this, with stories of paradise, grace etc. And I think some music suggests a comforting and ineffable world - so people can aspire to knowing that world better, being in it more securely. I'm thinking of things like big romantic adagios like in Mahler symphonies.

A fourth way is that music can be a model, a picture, of our mind. And so hearing it is like having a mirror held up to ourselves. And that can be both shocking and comforting, because it lets us know that we are not alone, our nature is shared. I'm thinking of the way the emotional states change so realistically in a piece like Schumann's first piano sonata, or Schoenberg's late string trio, or indeed some Chopin nocturnes and Mahler 9/i. Furtwangler was good at bringing out this aspect of Brahms and Beethoven.

There is a fifth way, and it has to do with love and the unknowability of pieces like op 131. But I need more time to think about it.

Very interesting post, though I bet that we GMG'ers could come up with way more than five (not that I have any suggestions, myself).

[Mirror Image]

Is it or Izzy?



For those that don't remember, the 1996 Summer Olympics were held in Atlanta, GA and their mascot was a weird looking creature named Izzy. I still have a good bit of memorabilia from these games.

[Linus]

But the moment we begin to try to say "This art matters, this doesn't," we begin to insult, discriminate against or otherwise deny the value of something someone holds very dear, at least potentially.  So to say that any art does not matter is. as many have said, false on its face.

But, but ... Can we speak of things that matter if we don't first assume that some things don't?

[North Star]

But, but ... Can we speak of things that matter if we don't first assume that some things don't?

A person can stay silent about art that doesn't matter to them.

[jochanaan]

A person can stay silent about art that doesn't matter to them.

Well writ!

[Karl Henning]

Sometimes, silence is the best wisdom.

[jochanaan]

Sometimes, silence is the best wisdom.

.
.
.

[Linus]

A person can stay silent about art that doesn't matter to them.

Certainly, and in most social contexts we probably should, but I also think it's quite possible to stay civil and friendly even when discussing this aspect of the philosophy of music, i.e. we don't have to make it into something concerning person against person or taste against taste. But if we are to discuss music, we will probably have to deal with likes and don't likes in general sooner or later, that's all.

Anyway, I personally believe music matters the most (or is the least "boring"?) when it confirms feelings we have about the world (so, somewhere between Mandryka's 3rd and 4th example of the way things can matter). If e.g. my feelings about death are well mirrored in a symphony, then that symphony matters to me. If it mirrors none of my feelings about the great mysteries of life, then I would say the symphony matters little to me.

[North Star]

But, but ... Can we speak of things that matter if we don't first assume that some things don't?

Certainly, and in most social contexts we probably should, but I also think it's quite possible to stay civil and friendly even when discussing this aspect of the philosophy of music, i.e. we don't have to make it into something concerning person against person or taste against taste. But if we are to discuss music, we will probably have to deal with likes and don't likes in general sooner or later, that's all.

Anyway, I personally believe music matters the most (or is the least "boring"?) when it confirms feelings we have about the world (so, somewhere between Mandryka's 3rd and 4th example of the way things can matter). If e.g. my feelings about death are well mirrored in a symphony, then that symphony matters to me. If it mirrors none of my feelings about the great mysteries of life, then I would say the symphony matters little to me.

My point was that whether art matters cannot be answered without considering who they are that it matters to. Any art, if it can be called such, matters at the very least to its creator. Saying that 'some art matters and some doesn't' is gross oversimplification. Some works of art are more important and influential than others, just as a flesh wound might not get you to the emergency room, but should be treated appropriately, or you might get e.g. blood poisoning. The doctors will start treating the more acute disease first without pondering whether that flesh wound matters at all.

[Karl Henning]

And then, there are questions of how much "importance" and "influence" matters 

[North Star]

And then, there are questions of how much "importance" and "influence" matters 

They matter a lot, in medicine. 

[San Antone]

A couple of quotes from John Cage which I think might be relevant to this discussion, especially if you substitute "(doesn't) matter(s)" for "to be beautiful" or "is boring".

"The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I feel it's not beautiful? And very shortly you discover there is no reason."
― John Cage

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all."
― John Cage

[Linus]

My point was that whether art matters cannot be answered without considering who they are that it matters to.

And I totally agree with you on that. But once we know to whom a piece of music matters, that person should--according to your previous post--be silent about the stuff he does not like. And in my opinion, that muddles the discussion. Rather, if we are allowed to discuss things we don't like, it may clarify why we like the things we do like (which, I assume, was the aim of this thread from the start).