Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[kishnevi]

The election being over, and Todd remaining cloudhidden, whereabouts unknown, I have started a thread to cover Trump's first (and G-d willing, only) term.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=26377.new#new

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yeah, it is a beautiful  sight to see democracy in action.  Oh, and hear it too.  Hillary Clinton and President Obama both give speeches advocating precisely the opposite, but  their constituents can't be bothered.

What respect you have for these constituents, why it's almost as much respect as liberals are accused of showing conservatives. But it's not as if the constituents are burning down Trump Tower. Surely the populace is under no obligation to "obey the leader" if all they're doing is to exercise their right to peaceful assembly.

[amw]

I have to say, so many Americans I've heard from lately are fucking terrified. Particularly immigrants, LGBT people, black and latino people, and women. Much more so than in 2000 (and definitely more so than anyone I heard about in 2008). There have been reports of people committing suicide upon learning of the election results.

The fear is partly of Trump (and Pence, for the LGBT people), more of emboldened Trump supporters feeling free to commit hate crimes and harassment, as we saw from emboldened Leave supporters after Brexit. Also notable is the fear of losing access to healthcare, and a massive sense of impending doom regarding climate change. A lot of people are looking to get out of the country, or to get married quickly before it becomes illegal again, or to change documentation for fear it will become more difficult, or to seek a second citizenship if they can, etc.

Meanwhile, educated, straight white people (especially men) who were freaking out yesterday are now going "wait, maybe it's not going to be so bad, it might be tough but we can survive~"

It kind of speaks to the old polarisation. Until now, for a couple of generations, the Democratic coalition has tended to be white blue-collar workers, women and minorities, and the Republican coalition has tended to be educated white-collar workers, the rich and the religious. This time, white blue-collar workers voted, more out of fear and alienation than anything else, against women and minorities and with the rich and religious, and the educated white-collar workers threw their lot in with women and minorities. (Tbf, a direction they've been heading in for a while.) But you can already kind of see the educated white-collar workers sliding back just a little, and the blue-collar workers starting to wonder if maybe they've made the wrong decision.

I suppose the reason there's so much paranoia is because we can already see how fragile support among upper-class whites is for the ideas of social and racial justice, women's liberation, gay rights, etc—already seen as just "political correctness" instead of life and death (i.e. supporting Clinton because they're excited to have a female president, rather than supporting a candidate who will actually be good for women across the country). For them, something like Black Lives Matter is just "politics". They can't understand. That creates this feeling of inevitability, that things are only going to get worse from now on and no one will have sufficient political capital to prevent it.

[kishnevi]

Did Johnson/Weld torpedo Clinton in PA, MI & NH?  Those collective 40 electoral votes would have mattered, might have made The Difference.

Not likely. Most Johnson voters would like me have voted for a GOP candidate who at least paid lip service to things like integrity, treating people decently, and who understood they are not the point around which the cosmos revolves. To the extent Johnson exceeded normal Libertarian voting tallies, the extra came from never Trump conservatives, and came often from non battleground states, where the voters assumed Trump would not need their assistance.  And given the predictions of 4.5% or more, Johnson may fairly be said to have fallen very flat.

[zamyrabyrd]

Yeah, it is a beautiful  sight to see democracy in action.  Oh, and hear it too.  Hillary Clinton and President Obama both give speeches advocating precisely the opposite, but  their constituents can't be bothered.

You think they don't approve behind the scenes? Hah!

[zamyrabyrd]

I have to say, so many Americans I've heard from lately are fucking terrified. Particularly immigrants, LGBT people, black and latino people, and women. Much more so than in 2000 (and definitely more so than anyone I heard about in 2008). There have been reports of people committing suicide upon learning of the election results.

Louis Farrakhan, not exactly an icon of sweetness and reconciliation, would not agree with you. I already cited a speech by him about his rejection of Hillary Clinton, precisely because of her connection to Planned Parenthood that was founded to reduce the Black population. Keeping African Americans poor is not helping them. I would have voted for Ben Carson myself if he became a candidate.

I used to think Farrakhan was a crackpot and his association with Gaddafi, more than quaint. However, given the aftermath of having taken him down as per "We came, we saw, he died", I have reconsidered. He has some very interesting things to say about Libya:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kfS3ze7VnI&t=189s

One of the things that amuse me concerning espousal of minorities by intellectuals, they don't consider the most basic mentality that has been played over and over again with new immigrants. This is called the "boat is full". The last wave of immigrants will identify with the entrenched group and spurn the newcomers. This was seen with for instance in the last century, the Irish against the newcomer Italians. Citizen Latinos would not necessarily want illegals even if they do speak Spanish taking jobs and opportunities from them.

As for LGBT, Mike Pence is not against that community but for protecting the religious rights of conscience which are very much endangered in so far as they are not sufficiently defined given the new developments. Not only the State of Indiana but the whole nation was worked into a snit when the bill to do just that came up in the legislature. Unfortunately, he could only sign a very watered down and practically meaningless version of it.

[71 dB]

Here Is What Donald Trump Wants To Do In His First 100 Days
cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama

I just wonder: Is every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by Obama really so bad they need to be canceled? 

[Tritone]

I have to say, so many Americans I've heard from lately are fucking terrified. Particularly immigrants, LGBT people, black and latino people, and women. Much more so than in 2000 (and definitely more so than anyone I heard about in 2008). There have been reports of people committing suicide upon learning of the election results.

The fear is partly of Trump (and Pence, for the LGBT people), more of emboldened Trump supporters feeling free to commit hate crimes and harassment, as we saw from emboldened Leave supporters after Brexit. Also notable is the fear of losing access to healthcare, and a massive sense of impending doom regarding climate change. A lot of people are looking to get out of the country, or to get married quickly before it becomes illegal again, or to change documentation for fear it will become more difficult, or to seek a second citizenship if they can, etc.

Meanwhile, educated, straight white people (especially men) who were freaking out yesterday are now going "wait, maybe it's not going to be so bad, it might be tough but we can survive~"

It kind of speaks to the old polarisation. Until now, for a couple of generations, the Democratic coalition has tended to be white blue-collar workers, women and minorities, and the Republican coalition has tended to be educated white-collar workers, the rich and the religious. This time, white blue-collar workers voted, more out of fear and alienation than anything else, against women and minorities and with the rich and religious, and the educated white-collar workers threw their lot in with women and minorities. (Tbf, a direction they've been heading in for a while.) But you can already kind of see the educated white-collar workers sliding back just a little, and the blue-collar workers starting to wonder if maybe they've made the wrong decision.

I suppose the reason there's so much paranoia is because we can already see how fragile support among upper-class whites is for the ideas of social and racial justice, women's liberation, gay rights, etc—already seen as just "political correctness" instead of life and death (i.e. supporting Clinton because they're excited to have a female president, rather than supporting a candidate who will actually be good for women across the country). For them, something like Black Lives Matter is just "politics". They can't understand. That creates this feeling of inevitability, that things are only going to get worse from now on and no one will have sufficient political capital to prevent it.

As I understand it, Americans are sick and tired of illegal immigration - not immigrants in general, since the USA is primarily an immigrant nation.  And they want to feel secure with muslims in their population and I have to agree with them 100% as these people come from totally alien cultures where women are deeply inferior and child brides are the order of the day.  Yet you'll never hear a feminist utter a word about any of this!!

It is staggering to me that rallies arae being held in places in the US about The Donald's election and these comprise many illegal immigrants who fear the future.   I continually ask myself why it is the Left which becomes so violent and disruptive.  The people have spoken.  Why in God's name SHOULD illegals feel entitled to come and live in the USA with all the benefits on offer there but, with a rapidly shrinking national pie, taking a chunk of it from people born in the USA?  It's the sense of entitlement which knocks my sox off and this was aided and abetted by the enabling mentality of the Democrats.  Americans, as I see it, are fed up to the back teeth with this and want change.  They're going to get it and before blaming Trump you people need to consider the cultural malaise and inexorable march of political correctness through the institutions which has spawned such a leader. 

Yes, time to think and reflect.  Entitlement and enabling are damaging concepts.  Democrats = enablers.
And before you utter your predictable response that the Republicans 'enable' big business just consider that, alas, these are the people who employ the populace. That's not to whitewash some very obvious problems. The white population - the very ones who built the USA into the nation it became, making their way West in very dangerous circumstances, from the time of the nascent nation  - have felt left behind and lost in the fog of identity politics.  Suddenly, and thankfully, that all seems so 'YESTERDAY'.

I wish America well and you might be pleasantly surprised how it all goes.  Stay optimistic because America is a 'can do' nation with a great capacity to reinvent itself.

Cheers,
A Deplorable

[Madiel]

Plenty of "these people who come from totally alien cultures" were actually born in the United States. But please, don't let that stop you from constructing neat categories for people and allocating them white or black hats to wear.

[Madiel]

PS If I remember correctly, the Orlando shooter was American born? I vaguely remember some nonsense about how his father shouldn't have been allowed to enter the country, on account of foreseeing the risk presented by his future child.

One wonders how many generations it takes before Americans are prepared to take responsibility for the failings of the American born instead of blaming it on "where they come from".

[Madiel]

PPS I'm always fascinated at how bad, evil Muslims are always seen as evidence against Islam, and yet bad, evil Christians - you know, the kind of folks who, say, walk into a black church and commit a massacre in the hope of starting a race war - never seem to be taken as evidence of Christianity generally. Even if they used Christian language in their evil rhetoric.

Somehow, people assure themselves that the Christian terrorists are just terrorists that happen to be Christian, whereas the Muslim terrorists are made terrorists BY being Muslim. It's a neat trick whereby nasty people from Christian backgrounds are made "other", whereas all Muslims are automatically "other" and no further nuance is necessary.

[Herman]

Yeah, it is a beautiful  sight to see democracy in action.  Oh, and hear it too.  Hillary Clinton and President Obama both give speeches advocating precisely the opposite, but  their constituents can't be bothered.

I take it you're talking about these schoolkids in California?

I believe the issue of peaceful transfer of power was prompted by Trump's apparent refusal to accept any other outcome than his win. Not by an outburst of teenage energies.

[Herman]

a massive sense of impending doom regarding climate change. A lot of people are looking to get out of the country,

Yeah, the idea that this man who was supposedly independent by means of his wealth is right in the pocket of the energy industry and "look, I've got a snowball right here in my hand: climate change doesn't exist!" is deeply unfortunate.

Addressing climate change can't wait another four years, it's already too late, really.

[zamyrabyrd]

PS If I remember correctly, the Orlando shooter was American born? I vaguely remember some nonsense about how his father shouldn't have been allowed to enter the country, on account of foreseeing the risk presented by his future child. One wonders how many generations it takes before Americans are prepared to take responsibility for the failings of the American born instead of blaming it on "where they come from".

The problem of immigration from fundamentally different cultures to the West is non-assimilation. The hardworking first generation usually doesn't have time for religious and political fundamentalism. The second generation is the more problematic one, not feeling a real identification with the host country or with the values of their parents. This is the breeding ground of born-again radicalists.

My grandparents immigrated from Italy to the US in the 1920's. There was no question of not totally embracing the values of the new country. They had to learn a minimum of English to be able to recite the Allegiance to the Flag before being accepted as citizens. My parents' generation was the problematic one, full of unresolved cultural conflicts but still they served in the WWII. I had many opportunities to speak with third generationers such as myself whose parents came from Russia and other countries who seemed to have had the same cultural conflicts. To be an "immigrant" in the 1930's and 40's was still an unenviable condition, betraying one's origin by opening one's mouth. There were still quotas against Jews in universities and country clubs, etc., into the 50's for instance.

In effect every wave of immigration or minority have had to prove themselves before acceptance. My grandparents and those like them did have not perks or privileges, just the opposite. It is completely goofy for a host country not only to have to accommodate itself to the cultural and religious differences of the guests but be hostages to violence, rape and murder.

[Jo498]

I have to say, so many Americans I've heard from lately are fucking terrified. Particularly immigrants, LGBT people, black and latino people, and women. Much more so than in 2000 (and definitely more so than anyone I heard about in 2008). There have been reports of people committing suicide upon learning of the election results.

While I understand the disappointment, this sounds almost as if gays or black people were rounded up and lynched in the early 2000s when Bush was president and would be in immediate danger now again after a brief period of safety under Obama. Does anyone really think one president (who does not at all belong to the religious right and does not seem to care personally all that much about LGBT either way) would completely reverse trends that started many decades ago?

I am also baffled by the apparent inability to see the conservative position. Brendan Eich was fired because he (privately) supported conservative politicians and policies. What happened to freedom of speech and plurality of opinion if something that would have been completely mainstream only 20 years ago (that a marriage is only between man and woman) is now considered "hate speech" and equivalent to a KKK membership? One can strongly disagree with Eich's stance but not to understand that it is a viable position (and actually has been the only thinkable position for most of human history almost everywhere - it is simply false to paint it as some religious extremist stance - and even if it was, it should be his private business) but can only be understood as an expression of irrational hate is really disingenious.

[Florestan]

Typical of most Americans, when things don't go their way they look for a savior, instead of thinking about how they are going to better themselves and set their own life straight. And these are the same clowns who think less govt, yet look for the govt to fix their lives. Sad.

That´s easy talk when your only existential dilemma is "which of my 37,653 recordings of Siegfried should I listen to today?", as opposed to "how am I going to pay all my debts and mortgages and provide an education for the kids without having either a job or the prospect of getting one in the near future?"

Besides, I don´t remember you scolding "most Americans" when they voted "a savior" who promised to "revive the economy; provide affordable, accessible health care to all; strengthen our public education and social security systems; define a clear path to energy independence and tackle climate change; end the war in Iraq responsibly and finish our mission in Afghanistan; and work with our allies to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon."

I take it simpler than that: 42% of the women who voted are just stupid.

This is a typical example of the contempt for "ignorant rednecks with an IQ lower than 90" that Ken so rightly denounced and which eventually exploded in the face of the intellectual elite.

[Florestan]

While I understand the disappointment, this sounds almost as if gays or black people were rounded up and lynched in the early 2000s when Bush was president and would be in immediate danger now again after a brief period of safety under Obama. Does anyone really think one president (who does not at all belong to the religious right and does not seem to care personally all that much about LGBT either way) would completely reverse trends that started many decades ago?

I am also baffled by the apparent inability to see the conservative position. Brendan Eich was fired because he supported conservative politicians and policies. What happened to freedom of speech and plurality of opinion if something that would have been completely mainstream only 20 years ago (that a marriage is only between man and woman) is now considered "hate speech"? One can strongly disagree with Eich's stance but not to understand that it is a viable position (and actually has been the only thinkable position for most of human history almost everywhere - it is simply false to paint it as some religious extremist stance) but can only be understood as an expression of irrational hate is really disingenious.

Agreed.

[North Star]

While I understand the disappointment, this sounds almost as if gays or black people were rounded up and lynched in the early 2000s when Bush was president and would be in immediate danger now again after a brief period of safety under Obama. Does anyone really think one president (who does not at all belong to the religious right and does not seem to care personally all that much about LGBT either way) would completely reverse trends that started many decades ago?

It's not just the President, it's the Supreme Court (the appointed Justices will be likely to serve and have considerable influence for decades), the President, the Vice President, and the Republican controlled Senate and House.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/11/09/here-is-what-president-trump-means-for-lgbt-rights/

[Karl Henning]

Not likely. Most Johnson voters would like me have voted for a GOP candidate who at least paid lip service to things like integrity, treating people decently, and who understood they are not the point around which the cosmos revolves. To the extent Johnson exceeded normal Libertarian voting tallies, the extra came from never Trump conservatives, and came often from non battleground states, where the voters assumed Trump would not need their assistance.  And given the predictions of 4.5% or more, Johnson may fairly be said to have fallen very flat.

Sound thesis.

[Karl Henning]

Yeah, it is a beautiful  sight to see democracy in action.  Oh, and hear it too.  Hillary Clinton and President Obama both give speeches advocating precisely the opposite, but  their constituents can't be bothered.

You think they don't approve behind the scenes? Hah!

Look at the two of you, protesting on the one hand that your being implacable Tuperos doesn't make you the same as the KKK, but gleefully asserting that all the Democratic constituency are indistinguishably alike.

Everyone here has eyes to read.