Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[zamyrabyrd]

I'd be quite interested to know, actually, which traditional moral and religious values Trump is supposed to embody.

A person's rights to the fruits of his or her labor. Not only recently, but in interviews in the 80's, Trump questioned the outsourcing of American jobs and other countries being favored over the US due to non-parity of tariffs.
Chopping away at the overgrown labyrinthine bureaucracy that discourages any business, not matter what its size.
Recognizing the freedom of conscience to opt out of political correctness. He did promise to protect religious freedom which is in grave danger, very much appreciated by the Evangelists. Also not unnoticed by Christian voters was virtually his being the first politician who not only spoke out against late term abortion but presented it in its grisly reality in front of tens of millions at the first debate. If anything the lowest, most unprotected underclass is the preborn.
Traditional American values are self-reliance and independence, not sucking on the teats of a centralized government who "distribute the wealth". The latter was being preached by Sanders, more openly than Clinton, for which I sigh in relief that he dropped out sooner than later.

[Que]

A person's rights to the fruits of his or her labor. Not only recently, but in interviews in the 80's, Trump questioned the outsourcing of American jobs and other countries being favored over the US due to non-parity of tariffs.
Chopping away at the overgrown labyrinthine bureaucracy that discourages any business, not matter what its size.
Recognizing the freedom of conscience to opt out of political correctness. He did promise to protect religious freedom which is in grave danger, very much appreciated by the Evangelists. Also not unnoticed by Christian voters was virtually his being the first politician who not only spoke out against late term abortion but presented it in its grisly reality in front of tens of millions at the first debate. If anything the lowest, most unprotected underclass is the preborn.
Traditional American values are self-reliance and independence, not sucking on the teats of a centralized government who "distribute the wealth". The latter was being preached by Sanders, more openly than Clinton, for which I sigh in relief that he dropped out sooner than later.

Though luck for impoverished Trump supporters living in rural areas and the "Rust Belt", I guess? 
If Trump is going to do anything for them, and they are actually the ones that delivered him the presidency, you bet that will result in a certain amount of redistribution of wealth by the State. But of course Republicans in Congress could try to fight him on every step of the way.... and dig their own political graves as a consequence...

And I don't think Trump is going to clamp down on abortion in any way, shape or form....
I would be quite surprised if he would ever mention it again.

Q

[North Star]

What has really got up my nose in the last decade or so is this notion of so-called "white privilege".  We've been told, especially men, to "check your privilege".  Well, you know what?  This demographic is one and the same who died in its millions in two world wars (and then some more) to preserve the freedoms.  That was almost entirely their PRIVILEGE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities_in_the_US_armed_forces_during_World_War_II
There were plenty of blacks (10% of the armed forces) and Hispanics fighting too, only to return back in the United States and not be able to sit in the same parts of the bus or restaurant as the white people, and with their separate entrances to businesses.

[North Star]

Traditional American values are self-reliance and independence, not sucking on the teats of a centralized government who "distribute the wealth". The latter was being preached by Sanders, more openly than Clinton, for which I sigh in relief that he dropped out sooner than later.

Traditional American values date back to the time before the industrial revolution and CEO's.

[Herman]

A person's rights to the fruits of his or her labor.

How can Trump "emboy" that value, when he stiffed contractors every single time and paid them only a fraction of what the original deal was?

[Florestan]

I do wonder how many of you, guys, actually have daily relationships and intercourse with "rednecks with an IQ less than 90", ie with people who

(1) do not hold a college degree
(2) cannot tell the difference between Bach and Bartok at the point of a gun
(3) have never heard about Voltaire, Marx or Marcuse, let alone read them
(4) struggle day in, day out to make ends meet

and

(5) adhere to, and agree with, traditional social values.

In other words, gentlemen, I do wonder how many of you have ever lived outside, and experienced, anything else than a "safe space", "closed bubble", "self serving" "liberal" environment.

No offense meant to anyone but based on the posts here my uneducated guess (pun intended) is: very few of you.

[Turner]

Count me in - and in many, various ways.
I disagree with any IQ implications, of course - in fact much of the IQ concept.

[Florestan]

I disagree with the IQ implication/concept, of course.

"Ignorant rednecks with an IQ less than 90" is an almost exact quote from a GMG member, approved by another one --- I can dig them up if challenged to the contrary and provided they don´t delete their posts. 

[BasilValentine]

Yes, I'd be ashamed to hector people as "privileged white" when millions of them died defending freedoms.  But it's the contemptuous tone of 'generation snowflake' and their safe spaces which has created the arrogance to make assumptions about 'the greatest generation' which (and you obviously do not know, so listen up!) is how those who fought and died for your bony hide in WW2 are now regarded.

You are aware that the vast majority of people who fought and died "defending our freedoms" in the European theater of WWII were citizens of the Soviet Union, right, and that not all of them were white? They suffered easily twenty times the casualties of the U.S. forces.

[Florestan]

You are aware that the vast majority of people who fought and died "defending our freedoms" in the European theater of WWII were citizens of the Soviet Union, right, and that not all of them were white? They suffered easily twenty times the casualties of the U.S. forces.

While it is true that the then Soviet Union citizens who fought and died in WWII outnumbered the Western nations ones, it is not true that they died "defending your freedoms". Had Stalin had his way, you´d have counted yourself as just another one of the Worldwide Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics. 

[North Star]

While it is true that the then Soviet Union citizens who fought and died in WWII outnumbered the Western nations ones, it is not true that they died "defending your freedoms". Had Stalin had his way, you´d have counted yourself as just another one of the Worldwide Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics. 

And the Western Allied leaders considered not stopping at Berlin, but continuing to Russia. In any case, I don't see how US politics should be affected by who fought in which war 70 or 100 years ago.

[Florestan]

And the Western Allied leaders considered not stopping at Berlin, but continuing to Russia.

Did they really? Who among them?

[North Star]

Did they really? Who among them?

Churchill (Operation Unthinkable) and Patton.

[BasilValentine]

While it is true that the then Soviet Union citizens who fought and died in WWII outnumbered the Western nations ones, it is not true that they died "defending your freedoms". Had Stalin had his way, you´d have counted yourself as just another one of the Worldwide Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics. 

They were our allies and their blood and suffering are the primary reason so few (relatively) of us had to die and suffer throughout the war. When they broke the siege of Stalingrad the outcome of the war was more or less inevitable, and that was more than a year before D-Day. So yes, they died defending our freedoms (whether they knew it or not) — and their homeland and their families. Stalin's wish list doesn't enter into it. 

[Pat B]

Though luck for impoverished Trump supporters living in rural areas and the "Rust Belt", I guess? 
If Trump is going to do anything for them, and they are actually the ones that delivered him the presidency...

That's what many people are saying, but I'm not so sure. There just aren't that many rural voters now. The typical Trump voter is suburban and currently earns a decent-to-good income. I suspect they like the idea of domestic manufacturing more than they actually want to work at a factory. And they aren't really going to care when the manufacturing jobs don't actually materialize.

The biggest problem for Democrats was turnout. Trump actually got fewer votes than McCain or Romney, but Democratic turnout was way down. In hindsight that's not really surprising since Clinton did not have much of a message beyond "did you hear what Trump said?"

[Florestan]

Operation Unthinkable

The name says it all.

[Florestan]

They were our allies

Were they your allies when they signed the Hitler-Stalin pact (ideologically misnomed as Ribentropp-Molotov) too?

Were they your allies when they invaded Poland simultaneously with Hitler too?

Will you Americans ever learn that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is one of the most dangerous falsehoods ever?

[Todd]

(1) do not hold a college degree
(2) cannot tell the difference between Bach and Bartok at the point of a gun
(3) have never heard about Voltaire, Marx or Marcuse, let alone read them
(4) struggle day in, day out to make ends meet

and

(5) adhere to, and agree with, traditional social values.

I don't know people's IQs, and I know few rednecks (though one of my neighbors certainly and proudly is one), but I interact with some people meeting these criteria every weekday.  And I live in a deep blue part of Oregon.

[BasilValentine]

Were they your allies when they signed the Hitler-Stalin pact (ideologically misnomed as Ribentropp-Molotov) too?

Were they your allies when they invaded Poland simultaneously with Hitler too?

Will you Americans ever learn that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is one of the most dangerous falsehoods ever?

Stalin was a fool. He crippled the Soviet armed forces during the purges of 1937 by wiping out the cream of the military elite. And he was stupid enough to misunderstand Hitler's intentions. Nevertheless, the Soviet Union's contribution to the war effort in blood and treasure dwarfs that of the western powers. Obviously, we didn't trust our Soviet allies in the least.

[Todd]

I suspect they like the idea of domestic manufacturing more than they actually want to work at a factory. And they aren't really going to care when the manufacturing jobs don't actually materialize.

Precisely.  I am not helping put my son through college, nor my daughter in a few years, so that they can get manufacturing jobs.  I don't know anyone else who is, either.  There are plentiful manufacturing jobs where I live - Intel has multiple gigantic fabs here - but the work is tedious and mind-numbing, and while the pay and benefits are good, it's not where the action or the money are at.  A few decades from now, I suspect my children will speak of an idealized form of manufacturing as some people still do with agricultural work now.