Who will get the Berliner Philharmoniker gig?

[Phrygian]

"The Spectator" has voted for Barenboim, endorsing him as the peace-making and ideal musician, but you can't read the article because of a pay wall.

Personally, my money is on Christian Thielemann - but there are those who think he won't get the top job because of politically incorrect comments about Islam.  He's entitled to his opinion and I'm happy to see he won't be gagged by the PC Thought Police!  Nobody will care what he thinks about Islam or what kind of detergent he uses to get his whites whiter than white as long as he is a first rate Dirigent, which he is!!

[Harry]

"The Spectator" has voted for Barenboim, endorsing him as the peace-making and ideal musician, but you can't read the article because of a pay wall.

Personally, my money is on Christian Thielemann - but there are those who think he won't get the top job because of politically incorrect comments about Islam.  He's entitled to his opinion and I'm happy to see he won't be gagged by the PC Thought Police!  Nobody will care what he thinks about Islam or what kind of detergent he uses to get his whites whiter than white as long as he is a first rate Dirigent, which he is!!

Thielemann first rate. Well thats a question of opinion. Luckily this so called first rate conductor, has a binding contract for another orchestra, of which he cannot get out!

[Mirror Image]

I'd like to see someone like Edward Gardner get the job (I know he won't) just for the fact that I believe he would bring a much needed resurgence in Polish, Czech, and British music to the Berliners.

[The new erato]

I'd like to see someone like Edward Gardner get the job (I know he won't) just for the fact that I believe he would bring a much needed resurgence in Polish, Czech, and British music to the BerlinersBergensers.

Corrected. He's ours!

[Karl Henning]

Nice!

[MishaK]

Personally, my money is on Christian Thielemann - but there are those who think he won't get the top job because of politically incorrect comments about Islam.  He's entitled to his opinion and I'm happy to see he won't be gagged by the PC Thought Police!  Nobody will care what he thinks about Islam or what kind of detergent he uses to get his whites whiter than white as long as he is a first rate Dirigent, which he is!!

The issue is not his attitude vs. Islam per se, but long standing political views that place him well to the right of the German political center, most recently expressing sympathy for a rather dumb far right movement, that is only ostensibly against "Islamicization of the West" (whatever that is) but really is across the board xenophobic and linked to neo-Nazi elements. The guy is just not really tenable as the figurehead of a very international roster of musicians, Germany's cultural ambassador abroad, located in Germany's arguably most liberal and diverse city. The BPO is keen on bringing in new audiences - globally, not just nationally - and in that light I don't see Thielemann as the right fit. You can be pro-Pegida in Dresden where fear of Islam is more abstract and based on a near total lack of contact with Muslims and if you're not being broadcast every week to the world. But it's going to turn you against most of the population of a city like Berlin with its massive Turkish community and it won't play well with global audiences in the Digital Concert Hall. The BPO MD position always was about much more than just the musicianship of the candidate (and if you ask me, I don't find CT's musicianship that impressive anyway - somewhat fine for the German romantics, except that he notoriously darkens everything and rounds off all the edges and corners, but he's fish out of water in just about everything else). The job is also much more than it was in Karajan's day.

Luckily this so called first rate conductor, has a binding contract for another orchestra, of which he cannot get out!

Oh, he would drop that "contract" like a hot potato, just like he walked out on Munich on a moment's notice, damn the legalistic torpedoes.

"The Spectator" has voted for Barenboim, endorsing him as the peace-making and ideal musician, but you can't read the article because of a pay wall.

Not happening. Barenboim has said he doesn't want the job and he's too old at this point in any case. He would have a near monopoly on the city's musical life if he got the gig, so that wouldn't be good for Berlin, and he is much more needed at the Staatsoper to preserve that musical institution for the future.

[Brian]

This is Normal Lebrecht, so take it with a pinch of salt, but:

"Diplomacy was never part of [Franz Welser-Möst's] [skillset]. He mentions having to ask the Berlin Philharmonic to repeat a passage seven times until he got the required pianissimo. Simon Rattle might not be flattered by that remark, but Franz is impervious to the implicit slur. There is something self-enclosed about him, something which might appear almost menacing unless one recognises his essential naivety."

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/040212-NL-welsermost.html

[Phrygian]

Turkish people going to the major European concert halls in significant numbers?  Phooey.  I've yet to see even a few and I've been to lots of European concerts.

Thielemann has never caused repercussions for the splendid Dresden Staatskapelle.  I always find it comparatively difficult to purchase a ticket to any of their concerts.

Thielemann, Barenboim, Welser-Most - there's going to be fierce competition for the top job in classical music so you can bet there will be bitch-slapping and other shenanigans.  But you've decided that Barenboim wouldn't be right for the job and he says he's said he's not interested!!  Wait till he gets an offer which puts that to the test!!  And the PC afficionados and thought-police/social engineers are sure hoping Thielemann doesn't get it.  As for the Dresden people not having direct contact with muslims;  I don't know when you were last there but I can assure you they do and they are entitled to their own opinions. 

Finally, Norman who?

[Brian]

Turkish people going to the major European concert halls in significant numbers?  Phooey.  I've yet to see even a few and I've been to lots of European concerts.

Coincidentally, I'm half-Turkish. Last time I was in Istanbul, I attended a booked-solid Istanbul Philharmonic gala with tenor Joseph Calleja.

As for the Dresden people not having direct contact with muslims;  I don't know when you were last there but I can assure you they do and they are entitled to their own opinions.

Dresden is 91% ethnically German, and just 4% non-European. In fact politically Dresden's views of Muslims are very different from Berlin's because of that lack of diversity.

[MishaK]

Turkish people going to the major European concert halls in significant numbers?  Phooey.  I've yet to see even a few and I've been to lots of European concerts.

I never said that. I said that a xenophobic MD will not go over well with concertgoers who are used to having lots of Turkish and other foreign neighbors. Thielemann is not a credible poster child for the multi-cultural city that is Berlin. He is untenable there politically. The political imaginary of Thielemann's positions is simply not the everyday lived reality of Berliners.

Thielemann has never caused repercussions for the splendid Dresden Staatskapelle.  I always find it comparatively difficult to purchase a ticket to any of their concerts.

Because Dresden is a very conservative city with a very tiny non-German population. Entirely different case.

But you've decided that Barenboim wouldn't be right for the job and he says he's said he's not interested!!  Wait till he gets an offer which puts that to the test!! 

It's not what *I* have decided, it's what he says, as well as the fact that the BPO won't consider conductors who will be 75 or older when they start the job, and Barenboim will be 76 in November 2018. He's not in the running. (And I don't say this because I don't like the guy, frankly he's my favorite living conductor.)

And the PC afficionados and thought-police/social engineers are sure hoping Thielemann doesn't get it.  As for the Dresden people not having direct contact with muslims;  I don't know when you were last there but I can assure you they do and they are entitled to their own opinions. 

Berlin has over 27% inhabitants with a foreign background. Dresden around 4%. You really want to debate this? Also, political correctness doesn't exist. http://www.vox.com/2015/1/28/7930845/political-correctness-doesnt-exist

Again, this doesn't have to anything to do with "thought police" or "social engineering". The Staatskapelle Dresden, for all its storied history, is a national orchestra. BPO is an international brand. It needs more than just a good conductor, it needs someone who will sell that brand abroad, via the digital concert hall and recordings. Whatever you may think of Rattle musically, he was perfect for that job and the fact that thousands around the world pay money to watch and listen to the BPO via the DCH every week is one of his greatest legacies at this orchestra.

[Phrygian]

Ii presume you speak from experience of living in Europe and Dresden in particular.  We'll have to disagree about Thielemann.  The people of Dresden have had their fair share of horrors in the past.

And political correctness does exist.  It's the last risible argument from the pc army of Thought Police and conversation sledgers.  And I don't understand your citing figures about population statistics when just yesterday a boatload of illegal immigrants - 10,000 in one day - arrived yet again in Europe, heading straight for Germany and the UK.  Try telling the local people there that they should conform to your idea of how to live.  So there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

The BPO appointee will have his own political opinions, just as others did before him.  He is entitled to express these.  If you want diplomacy in classical music you probably really enjoy Andre Rieu.

[Ken B]

"Also, political correctness doesn't exist."
And citing Vox to prove it!

Priests don't exist, just ask the Pope.

[Phrygian]

And we don't want any of those "old" conductors getting a gig.  Ageism - sheesh!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1qASfzTAfQ

And I expect Gergeiv never to get a decent appointment because of his too-close relationship with Putin.  Phooey!

[MishaK]

Ii presume you speak from experience of living in Europe and Dresden in particular.

Indeed, I speak from 20+ years of experience of living as a German-born, non-ethnic-German in Germany.

The people of Dresden have had their fair share of horrors in the past.

And that entitles them to be xenophobes?

And I don't understand your citing figures about population statistics when just yesterday a boatload of illegal immigrants - 10,000 in one day - arrived yet again in Europe, heading straight for Germany and the UK.  Try telling the local people there that they should conform to your idea of how to live.  So there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

It appears you don't understand a lot of things. I said that the experience of Berliners living with non-Germans in their midst for decades is very different than that of Dresdeners, who until recently had almost no foreign population and even still today have very few foreigners among them. That is what the statistics support. Their fears of foreigners are fears of the unknown, of that with which they have little or no personal experience. Across Europe and indeed the globe, xenophobia is generally strongest among those groups with the least concact with actual foreigners. Dresden v. Berlin is no exception. PS: "illegal immigrant" is an arbitrary bureaucratic classification. It has no moral weight. Whether we consider someone a "legal" or "illegal" immigrant has to do with the cultural prejudices of our society, that is we accept immigrants from certain countries but not from others, which has nothing to do with the individual immigrant's merit as a human being. Please keep that in mind.

The BPO appointee will have his own political opinions, just as others did before him.  He is entitled to express these.  If you want diplomacy in classical music you probably really enjoy Andre Rieu.

You love debating positions I never took. I didn't ask for "diplomacy in music" (and Rieu may have nutty ideas entirely of his own that we are unaware of). I just pointed out that Thielemann is an unlikely figurehead for this orchestra, given its position in the most multi-cultural city in Germany and given its international market. You can disagree with that all you want to the extent that you believe you are entitled to insist on a fact-free opinion. Even with what I said, the BPO *may still* elect Thielemann for all they want, simply because there is no other suitable candidate of the right age and experience and/or because they simply like working with the guy (which I rather doubt, because he's generally been an intolerable diva since the earliest days of his career). Point still is, this guy excels only in a narrow German-centric repertoire and comes with political baggage that will not be good for the global BPO brand and might undo some of Sir Simon's achievements. All this is entirely independent of whether you like CT as a musician, which you are perfectly entitled to.

[MishaK]

And we don't want any of those "old" conductors getting a gig.  Ageism - sheesh!!

You realize they want someone who'll stick around for some 15 years at least, right? Getting someone who's likely to keel over mid-tenure kinda defeats the purpose.

[Phrygian]

You have a tendency to moralize and lecture in a way which is rather self-serving.  And your comments about "moral weight" are moral relativism incarnate.  In the real world people don't split hairs about moral weight and the use of particular words - only the PC brigade is really interested in this.  It's always predicated on the assumption that the vast majority of people don't know what's good for them, that you and others do and that if only they had greater moral virtue the world would be a better place.  I'm on a Visa from Australia and living in Vienna.  I assure you if I over-stayed that Visa I'd be regarded as an "illegal over-stayer/immigrant". 

We shall see whether Thielemann or Barenboim get the top job.

[MishaK]

You have a tendency to moralize and lecture in a way which is rather self-serving.  And your comments about "moral weight" are moral relativism incarnate.  In the real world people don't split hairs about moral weight and the use of particular words - only the PC brigade is really interested in this.  It's always predicated on the assumption that the vast majority of people don't know what's good for them, that you and others do and that if only they had greater moral virtue the world would be a better place.  I'm on a Visa from Australia and living in Vienna.  I assure you if I over-stayed that Visa I'd be regarded as an "illegal over-stayer/immigrant". 

Lucky you to qualify for a visa! Great. What a mouthful of baseless conjecture and ad hominems. So give me in your words a non-"moral relativist" explanation as to why "illegal immigrant" is in fact a term that has a moral weight.

Btw, my argument was not one of moral relativism. I said that the term has no moral value whatsoever (quite an absolute, not a relative statement), because two people from two different countries doing the same thing would receive different labels based on bureacuratic arbitrariness.

Btw 2, your facts are entirely wrong. It was 10,000 migrants in the first three months of 2015, not in a single day. http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/14/europe/italy-migrants-mediterranean-sea/ And that tells us nothing about whether they are illegal. Many of them may very well be legitimate refugees subject to persecution at home who have a right to asylum.

[Phrygian]

Well, I'm listening to German news reports on the latest arrivals at Lampadusa and the figure of 10,000 was mentioned this morning.  The Austrian news report on TV tonight showed that the majority of them are heading for Germany;  some for France and Spain, but mostly Germany.  My understanding was this latest large swathe of arrivals had happened in a very short space of time.  Perhaps my translating isn't up to much, but these people have arrived in great numbers and will continue to do so.  This disturbs a vast number of Europeans whether you like it or not.  If Christian Thielemann wants to sympathize with some of those people he's quite entitled to do so.  Just as Daniel Barenboim would feel free to criticize the state of Israel for its position on Palestine.  They're grown up enough to accept that people have divergent opinions and freedom of speech guarantees them the right to express those opinions.  After all, suppression of speech occurs in a climate of fear - being afraid of what people have to say - not the reverse.  A healthy, open society isn't worried about those things.

But I didn't misunderstand when I heard that some of these illegal immigrants from Africa had murdered Christians on the same boat.

This is all a world away from my original point about Christian Theilemann, who has already enjoyed many prestigious musical positions.  And he will continue to do so.  That's he's not a captive to political correctness gives me a great deal of additional pleasure.

[MishaK]

Phrygian, did you even read the link I posted? I think the CNN article clears up your confusions. And it goes without saying that just because *some* individuals are guilty of having murdered Christians who were on the boat with them, that doesn't mean that all other of 10,000 are guilty by association. And again, not all of them are "illegal". The article mentions that many of them are from Syria, which makes them legit refugees with a legal entitlement to asylum.

This disturbs a vast number of Europeans whether you like it or not. 

It's not for me to like or dislike and I don't at all deny the reality of this, however paranoid it is. This, however, has nothing to do with Pegida and the lack of a meaningful foreign population in Dresden. And it also has nothing to do with CT's opinions, which are more broadly aligned with xenophobic elements and have nothing to do with the recent refugee crisis.

If Christian Thielemann wants to sympathize with some of those people he's quite entitled to do so.  Just as Daniel Barenboim would feel free to criticize the state of Israel for its position on Palestine.  They're grown up enough to accept that people have divergent opinions and freedom of speech guarantees them the right to express those opinions.  After all, suppression of speech occurs in a climate of fear - being afraid of what people have to say - not the reverse.  A healthy, open society isn't worried about those things.

See, this is where the confusion comes in and conservatives retreat into this panicked little shell where they start accusing people of "suppressing speech". Freedom of speech means not just that you are entitled to air your ideas, but that those ideas will be tested in a free speech "marketplace of ideas". What happened in the last few decades is that white males from the dominant ethnic group used to be able to go into that marketplace and air their ideas nearly unopposed. Now that their ideas are being tested more loudly by others who disagree, they feel threatened. But nobody is actually suppressing them at all. They are just not used to the opposition, they are not used to having to justify themselves, they are not used to having to show that they have done their homework, grasp the facts, having to show sound logic etc. Those of us who come from minorities are used to being challenged in such a way all the time. We have to do our homework twice over to make sure we will even be heard. If Pegida, CT or you or whoever wants insist on opinions that deny the basic humanity of certain groups of people based on fact-free prejudice, unsubstantiated fear and pure conjecture, you can expect in a free speech market to have such opinions challenged. Maybe instead of being afraid of saying what you think, you should instead review why it is that you think what you think and try to take into account perspectives other than your own.

This is all a world away from my original point about Christian Theilemann, who has already enjoyed many prestigious musical positions.

Four positions in total, to be precise. And only one really a "prestigious" upper tier position (Dresden), one was decidedly third tier (Nuremberg). Again, if you read what I actually said instead of going off on tangents, I expressly said that the BPO may in fact choose CT in the end. I said I find it unlikely, because he does not match the image and the brand that they want to project to the global audience that they do in fact have these days (and which Dresden and the other organizations CT led in the past don't). You may be offended by that, but this isn't so much my opinion as it is the reality of the situation. Same goes for the reasons why I doubt they would choose Barenboim at this point in time. Recall that neither Abbado nor Rattle were the "obvious" choices at those times either. I expect that they will make as independent and bold of a choice this time as well.

[Phrygian]

I'm not confused.  You have already said "Islamicization of the west" - whatever that is!  Do you not know anything about the current cultural arguments;  it is disengenous to suggest you haven't, especially for the purpose of argument.  You are trying to make an Islamic-free discussion about immigration.  That's cute!

Your position is typical of the Left:  never able to be self-critical or to think about anybody else but yourselves and your own moral imperatives - which add weight to the notion that the vast majority of the unwashed don't share your exquisite moral values and neutral, gender-free, ideologically free (yeah right), political correct-free, religion-free universe.  Rather an arid position, as most of them are so "free" of absolutely everything - there's actually an ontological problem here.  And there are people out there who are very willing to put themselves on the line, express their concerns and those of their fellow human beings and who are very prepared to pay the price for that.  Christian Thielemann was supporting his own orchestra and community - the discussion must have been had (though, sotto voce behind cupped hands I would suggest).  And the people with the guts to stand up for what they believe in, instead of sheltering behind the stagnant and arid universe of PC, are my heroes.

We've dealt with our illegal immigrants in Australia and saved over 1,000 lives in the process.  It happens that about one third of them (possibly more) were not legitimate refugees. 

And you try to turn the arguments about the Left and PC on their heads, accusing Conservatives of suppressing speech.  Cute again.  Saying that they aren't suppressed but hearing an alternative point of view from, what was it now, 'white males'.  I'd suggest that taking somebody to court because they've said something about you - based on race, gender or sexual preference - and which YOU think is "offensive" (as we have experienced in Australia) isn't freedom of speech at all.  It's uses the processes of the courts to shut down conversation because you (or the plaintiff) might feel personally "offended".  If only we heard an alternative point of view which was realistic, based on shared cultural values and aligned with community and society generally I'd be out cheering in the streets.

It's pointless trying to argue with you.  Good night from Vienna.  I lived here in 2011 and had to depart before the end of my 12 month visa lest I be regarded as an "illegal".  I am privileged to be able to be called that, you see, as I'm white.