Greatest composer of the 20th century?

[San Antone]

This is why attempting to divide music history into century based periods is not appropriate.  The Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern periods did not fall neatly into the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. 

[Daverz]

This is why attempting to divide music history into century based periods is not appropriate.  The Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern periods did not fall neatly into the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

Beethoven is part of the "long" 19th Century that started with the French Revolution and ended with the start of WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_nineteenth_century

I think 20th Century music is just too fractured and diverse to pick a single greatest composer.  Even the greatest composer of the interwar years is a tough one.   It's probably a three-way race between Stravinsky, Schoenberg, and Bartok.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

RE : Igor, consider Grove : "One of the most widely performed and influential composers of the 20th century, he remains also one of its most multi-faceted.  A study of his work automatically touches on almost every important tendency in the century's music, from the neo-nationalism of the early ballets, through the more abrasive, experimental nationalism of the WWI years, the neo-classicism of the 1920-51 period, and the studies of old music which underlay the proto-serial works of the 1950s..."  I would argue - hopefully w/o being argumentative - that his chameleon-like diversity esp. qualifies him as the quintessential composer of the century in his continual self-re-definition.  Think Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Beatles...

[Cato]

Yes to following eras rather the clock: I once pointed out that some historians see eras rather than centuries, e.g. the Renaissance can be seen as beginning as early as the middle 1300's and lasting until the end of the 30 Years' War in 1648, around the transition to the Enlightenment with e.g. Newton and Leibniz and Bach being born around that time.

I once heard a lecturer saying that the 19th century in one sense was one of the longest, from 1776-1918.  The 20th was short: 1918-1989 (Fall of Communism).

[North Star]

Yes to following eras rather the clock: I once pointed out that some historians see eras rather than centuries, e.g. the Renaissance can be seen as beginning as early as the middle 1300's and lasting until the end of the 30 Years' War in 1648, around the transition to the Enlightenment with e.g. Newton and Leibniz and Bach being born around that time.

The change from Renaissance to Baroque was indeed far from instantaneous, starting really with the Council of Trent (1545-1563), and the Counter-Reformation.

I once heard a lecturer saying that the 19th century in one sense was one of the longest, from 1776-1918.  The 20th was short: 1918-1989 (Fall of Communism).

Seems a bit arbitrary. Why not cut off at 1945 instead of 1989? Have the conflicts of the kind that were frequent during Cold War really stopped? USA no more in war on foreign, non-European/Russian soil, Russia no longer fighting for influence in East Europe or Middle East? All are content in the Far East?

[mc ukrneal]

So what metric should be used to measure greatness?

I offer these:

Lifetime falls squarely within the 20th century
Influence is significant and demonstrative
Music is performed often and of works from all periods of his life

Without some sort of discussion around this (the criteria), the discussion is mostly who we like more or know more. You have given some criteria, which were some of those I was considering as well (perhaps put differently). What I might add (thinking out loud):
- music evolved/advanced a certain art form (like Bartok with string quartets)
- wrote at least several masterpieces (the idea here is that I would not include someone like Orff in this type of discussion) with overall high quality along the way
- originality with a style that was constantly developing/evolving

If I were to vote, I would pick Schoenberg. Stravinksky, to my mind, would not advance to the final (I feel too much relies on the Rite of Spring). Other composers who I feel should be included in the discussion (and glad to see some of them already named): Cage, Gershwin, Ellington, Ives, and Britten among others.

But in the end, I feel we all come to a conclusion, in part, based on how the music impacts us both emotionally and psychologically. This is perhaps so subjective that no agreement can ever be reached.

[Moonfish]

But in the end, I feel we all come to a conclusion, in part, based on how the music impacts us both emotionally and psychologically.
This is perhaps so subjective that no agreement can ever be reached.

Very true!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Anyway, your view on Cage as a composer?

More interesting as a personality. I have little interest in his music.

[Karl Henning]

Excellent! 

It's not a dash.  Not that anyone imagines that James knows what he's talking about, anyway 

[Ken B]

It's not a dash.  Not that anyone imagines that James knows what he's talking about, anyway 

Now Karl. Why so negative? You know what they say: dashuate the postive!

[Mirror Image]

I've been a member since 2005 and I can assure you, most of it is content. I certainly don't have time to bicker over minute grammar and bullshit like that ..

Anyway, your view on Cage as a composer?

If you call copying-and-pasting actual content, then, yes, you've been quite the busy bee.

[Brian]

More interesting as a personality. I have little interest in his music.

Have you read any of Cage's essays on music? I saw a few excerpts from the book Silence: Lectures and Writings and was intrigued enough to add it to my wish-list.

[Mirror Image]

I think 20th Century music is just too fractured and diverse to pick a single greatest composer.

Pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well.

[Karl Henning]

If you call copying-and-pasting actual content, then, yes, you've been quite the busy bee.

Tireless in pasting in the light to shine upon our Darkness 

[amw]

Cage is the greatest, but I guess Bartók is probably my favourite.

[San Antone]

Yea .. that about sums it up.

For some. 

[NJ Joe]

It's not a dash.  Not that anyone imagines that James knows what he's talking about, anyway 

I know it's not a dash. My point with the "excellent" comment was that I was just kidding around with James after his previous exchange and he got me back. All in fun (I hope)!

[Karl Henning]

I know it's not a dash. My point with the "excellent" comment was that I was just kidding around with James after his previous exchange and he got me back. All in fun (I hope)!

Oh, I'm certainly having fun   0:)

[Karl Henning]

Yea .. that about sums it up.

Typically, the colloguial yeah is spelled with an h at the end.

Or, perhaps you meant the archaism yea (as opposed to nay).

I know, I know:  when you're too lazy to get it right, it qualifies as "bullshit like that," you class act, you LOL

[Sergeant Rock]

Beethoven is a exceptional case since he is unquestionably a great composer, but his life was almost equally split between the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th, with most of his adult life occurring in the 19th.   I could accept him as a 19th c. composer easier than Debussy or Mahler as 20th c. composers, because their lives occurred mainly in the 19th c.

Mahler's creative life occurred mostly in the 20th century: Symphonies 4-10, Das Lied von der Erde, Rückert-Lieder, Kindertotenlieder. His music fits the 20th century even more than the 19th stylistically (he had profound influence on the Second Viennese boys, Shostakovich, etc). It took a half century after his death for his music to finally be accepted by the mass of classical listeners but now fits your third criterion of greatness: his "music is performed often and of works from all periods of his life."

But back to Beethoven, I  consider him a Classical period composer (agreeing with Charles Rosen), a style which mainly occurred in the 18th century, so I'd put him more into that period.

I agree with you (in GMG's ongoing debate whether Beethoven is Romantic or Classical) but that's not the point. James' poll is based on a century, a time period, not on style. Mahler lived in the 20th century. Most of his music was composed in the 20th century. He deserves consideration as one of the great 20th century composers.

Sarge