Louis Spohr (1784-1859)

[cilgwyn]

WOW - a blast from the past! 

I've not added any more Spohr to my collection since an earlier post; still just have the one symphony CD w/ Shelley (i.e. Nos. 4/5) - but I see that he has recorded all 10 of the works on Hyperion - will they come out w/ a box soon? 

Cilgwyn - will be curious upon arrival of your comparison of No. 5 on Marco Polo vs. Shelley?  I'd like to acquire some more of these symphonic works, so will await your assessment and also hope that Shelley is put into a BOX!     Dave

The eternal dilemma! Whether to wait for the box?!! The Spohr symphonies are a particular dilemma! Looking through alll the earlier posts & those on the old forum (nice to be able to 'dig' into that!) I HAVE now,not being a Spohr experts (to say the least) realised that his symphonies are more controversial than I thought. Unlike say,Raff for example,they are not regarded as being central to his work. Also,Spohr is obviously more highly regarded in respect to his chamber & instrumental output. In other words,I do get the feeling I've started from the wrong end really,haven't I? A bit like being introduced to Schubert through his operatic output or....unfortunately,I can't think of another example! The opera's of Vaughan Williams? But they're actually pretty good (imho)!! For a later example,Dohnanyi! Reading various posts about that composer,I often get the feeling I should have heard his Sextet first!!!

Incidentally,when I first saw that sentence about hoping Shelley was put in a box,I must admit I fleetingly,wondered exactly what you meant! I thought,"Oh,poor old Howard Shelley,he's not that bad I'd want him dead!!!" But then I realised it was a joke!!!

Currently,listening to Anton Rubinstein's third symphony & quite enjoying it,tut! tut!!! It's supposed to be crap!!

                                 

[SonicMan46]

The eternal dilemma! Whether to wait for the box?!! The Spohr symphonies are a particular dilemma...............I do get the feeling I've started from the wrong end really,haven't I? ..............

Incidentally,when I first saw that sentence about hoping Shelley was put in a box................

Currently,listening to Anton Rubinstein's third symphony & quite enjoying it,tut! tut!!! It's supposed to be crap!!
                               

Well, I do like Spohr's chamber works (and his violin concertos); of the two dozen or so discs of his music in my collection, I believe the single symphony one was likely bought last (or nearly so) - concerning the 'box', I just meant whether Hyperion might box these Shelley recordings up at a good price, but one never knows?

Anton Rubinstein - no symphonies for me at the moment, so cannot make any comments; just own some solo piano works (Leslie Howard), a disc of cello chamber works, and a single piano concerto; however, looking on Amazon, I see a bunch of his symphonies by him mainly on the Marco Polo and Naxos labels w/ 3* to 5* reviews (the Naxos ones likely just MP redos?) - might be some good stuff there? 

[Sergeant Rock]

I HAVE now....realised that his symphonies are more controversial than I thought.                     

After reading your recent posts on Spohr's symphonies I decided to listen to clips (I own a few of his chamber works but no symphonies). I had the strangest sensation: although I was listening to different movements, they all sounded the same! There was no contrast. And then I went to Classics Today and read the review of the CPO 3 & 10. The review began:

"What can you say about a composer whose music is so rhythmically flabby and lacking in contrast that everything basically sounds like everything else?"

So it isn't just me. I know it's unfair to judge an entire symphony by a few short clips, but I didn't hear anything even remotely interesting. And yet, perversely, I still have an urge to order the 3/10 anyway (it's very cheap at JPC). I'm trying to discover why I have this urge    I should probably ask snyprrrr....he's full of strange urges 


Sarge

[Brian]

After reading your recent posts on Spohr's symphonies I decided to listen to clips (I own a few of his chamber works but no symphonies). I had the strangest sensation: although I was listening to different movements, they all sounded the same! There was no contrast. And then I went to Classics Today and read the review of the CPO 3 & 10. The review began:

"What can you say about a composer whose music is so rhythmically flabby and lacking in contrast that everything basically sounds like everything else?"

Audiences in the 1820s simply loved Spohr. I can't help wanting a particularly incisive HIP ensemble, like Das Neue Orchester, to come in and record some Spohr symphonies with all their inhibitions set aside and their horn players standing up...or something. 

[cilgwyn]

Sarge: And I still feel guilty about overrating the Lachner Fifth! I feel like I owe you! But,I didn't expect you to buy it!!! I quite like that theme in the first movement,but it just goes on too long for it's own good & fair play to Schubert! He might have ACTUALLY been able to do SOMETHING with it!
  As to Spohr. I DO know what you mean! But in all fairness to Spohr,David Hurwitz?!!! I mean,come on! He's the one who thinks Havergal Brian enthusiasts are all bald,long haired Michael Foot look-a-likes with halitosis & hygiene issues!!! (So,that's why the postman runs off! )Still,I'd go with the 3rd,if you can't resist the urge! I haven't heard the tenth,so I can't comment. I DO like the 3rd quite ALLOT,but judging by allot of posts here,even Spohr enthusiasts are not too sure about this side of his output! They all seem to centre around his chamber & instrumental output. As a newbie to Spohr,I DO get a strong feeling I've picked the wrong Spohr!! And,quite frankly,right now,I DO feel like that character in 'No way out!' Also,unfortunately for me,I DO quite like No's 5 & 6,as well!!!

[cilgwyn]

Incidentally Brian,I agree with you're post. It's like judging Tournemire's symphonies on those awful Marco Polo performances. And the AV ones weren't that much better,really!
Anyway,off topic!

I've been listening to the Spohr symphonies for a few days & they're only really beginning to 'open up' now. Symphonies 7 & 8 are still a struggle,though!

[mc ukrneal]

Let me take a middle road. If you listen quickly to various clips, there is a sort of sameness to them. But I find some of the earlier syphonies quite refreshing (not in a experimental way, but just good music making). So if you do get anything, I think you would be happier to start with at least one of the first few symphonies.

And as you need no urging...um, err...where is that snyprrrr character when you need him!

Re: Rubinstein, you might try the second symphony on MDG label as a starting point (vol 2 orchestral works), though note that the Naxos and MDG are different versions of the same symphony.

[cilgwyn]

I'm really enjoying Rubinstein's third symphony,so maybe I'm just easily pleased. The final movement seems to end with a gong stroke. I'm wearing headphones & I was halfway down a staircase. I thought,"Whoa?! What's that!" Dangerous stuff,I could have been killed by a cd of Anton Rubinstein!!! (Rimsky-Korsakov,probably knew the feeling!)
Jon Leifs,eat you're heart out!

Spohr,like Rubinstein,strikes me as an 'amiable' composer. If you're expecting anything very deep,or even quite deep,you're probably going to be disappointed. If you just take a symphony like No3 as what it is,lots of bubbly charm & some very bracing orchestration,you may actually like it!
Possibly?!!

I agree with you about excerpts,mc ukrneal. They're useful,but sometimes the sound quality & poorly chosen samples can be misleading. I was trying to listen to parts of an operetta recently & nearly all the samples chosen were 'talking bits'!

[cilgwyn]

Yes,the Rubinstein 3 DOES end with a gong stroke. Well,at least it sounds like one.Unless,somebody dropped something!! Like the one at the beginning of those Rank movies,but better! The final 'pages' of this symphony are unexpectedly exciting & exactly what keeps me listening to allot of these 'minor' composers!

Likewise,Spohr's symphonies may not be deep. But that 3rd symphony has charm,good humour & tunes that more than make up for any 'intellectual' short comings!
Also,this fellow was once very famous. I seem to remember reading somewhere that he was regarded by some as greater (or more progressive?!) than Beethoven. (Maybe someone here can provide some more information on this?) Going too far,to be sure. But I'm always wondering which composers we rate highly today,will eventually fall,spectacularly,from grace?!
And he IS an interesting puzzle!

Unable to resist any more,I now have some of his chamber/instrumental music on order! But I'm not buying ANY more cds now,period!!

[Sergeant Rock]

Audiences in the 1820s simply loved Spohr. I can't help wanting a particularly incisive HIP ensemble, like Das Neue Orchester, to come in and record some Spohr symphonies with all their inhibitions set aside and their horn players standing up...or something. 

Oh yeah! We should petition the Hobbit Fey. He and his Heidelbergers I'm sure would present Spohr in the most persuasive light possible.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge: And I still feel guilty about overrating the Lachner Fifth! I feel like I owe you! But,I didn't expect you to buy it!!! I quite like that theme in the first movement, but it just goes on too long for it's own good

A 20+ minute first movement....yeah, it does rather go on    (But there is a gorgeous new melody starting at 10:35 that's worth the price of admission. Pity it disappears so quickly.) But did I say I didn't like the symphony? I can't recall now. I only listened once or twice six months ago (and am listening again now). But even if I didn't then, no need to apologize. I spend quite a bit on "experiments" and rarely regret a purchase.

  As to Spohr. I DO know what you mean! But in all fairness to Spohr,David Hurwitz?!!!

I know, I know    But I only brought him up because he had the same reaction to that symphony, and that performance, that I did.

Still, I'd go with the 3rd,if you can't resist the urge!

So if you do get anything, I think you would be happier to start with at least one of the first few symphonies.

Okay, I'll give the Third a try.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that he was regarded by some as greater (or more progressive?!) than Beethoven. (Maybe someone here can provide some more information on this?) Going too far,to be sure. But I'm always wondering which composers we rate highly today,will eventually fall,spectacularly,from grace?

I recall reading in the notes for one of the Brautigam Beethoven Sonata cycle releases (maybe volume 5) that Beethoven himself criticized Spohr for excess chromaticism, which obscured the tonal center of the music. 

[cilgwyn]

Fingers crossed,eh,Sarge?!! Well,if I can enjoy Rubinstein's third! (For that finale,maybe!!) Hope you're not going to buy it now,Sarge!

Yes that tune in the first movement of Lachner's fifth? I played it quite allot & then my enthusiasm waned. I have a feeling a better performance would help. Also,his Sixth is supposed to be much better,but there's no blinking recording!   I understand he's regarded as a bit of a 'missing link'. Not the kind dug up in chalk pits,I hasten to add! At least,I hope not!

Must admit,I have actually (Ahem!),found myself agreeing with Hurwitz on the odd occasion!

I hope it's a lucky No3,for you! From what I've heard this is the most tuneful one,although I wouldn't go so far as to say I could whistle any of it & I haven't heard No 4,yet!
Personally,I really DO like it. Just don't expect anything terribly deep or epoch making & you may enjoy it!

[cilgwyn]

The Hyperion cd of Spohr's 3rd & 4th arrived today,so I've now got one! Unusually for a new cd,I played the third item,Symphony No5,first,so I could compare it with the Marco Polo performances. Of course,these are the ones to get & you notice the difference immediately. I'm not a musician,so I have to go by my ears & it's not just the improvement in sound quality. The Hyperion performance seems to bring out more of the character of the music,there's more contrast,atmosphere,you name it! Still,the MP performance wasn't so bad it put me off! In a way,I'm almost glad I heard it first,because it does seem to suggest that some of the negative responses to Spohr's symphonies are due to the kind of performances people get to hear,as opposed to the music itself. (Rubinstein's 'Ocean Symphony' is another one that would benefit from a performance & recording as good as this). Hyperion have also made these issues even more attractive by putting those fantastic Caspar David Friedrich paintings on the front!

Currently on a tight budget & not wanting to spend too much,at the moment,I bought the Decca Eloquence 2cd set of Spohr's Chamber music. There are some cuts in these 1960's recordings,but they have a good 'pedigree',as far as I can make out & the reviews I have seen are pretty good. Also,2 for the price of 1!! Of course,if I like what I hear,I can buy some of the recommendations I have seen here!

[mc ukrneal]

The Hyperion cd of Spohr's 3rd & 4th arrived today,so I've now got one! Unusually for a new cd,I played the third item,Symphony No5,first,so I could compare it with the Marco Polo performances. Of course,these are the ones to get & you notice the difference immediately. I'm not a musician,so I have to go by my ears & it's not just the improvement in sound quality. The Hyperion performance seems to bring out more of the character of the music,there's more contrast,atmosphere,you name it! Still,the MP performance wasn't so bad it put me off! In a way,I'm almost glad I heard it first,because it does seem to suggest that some of the negative responses to Spohr's symphonies are due to the kind of performances people get to hear,as opposed to the music itself. (Rubinstein's 'Ocean Symphony' is another one that would benefit from a performance & recording as good as this). Hyperion have also made these issues even more attractive by putting those fantastic Caspar David Friedrich paintings on the front!

Currently on a tight budget & not wanting to spend too much,at the moment,I bought the Decca Eloquence 2cd set of Spohr's Chamber music. There are some cuts in these 1960's recordings,but they have a good 'pedigree',as far as I can make out & the reviews I have seen are pretty good. Also,2 for the price of 1!! Of course,if I like what I hear,I can buy some of the recommendations I have seen here!

Interesting to finally see a comparison. I have always been happy with the Hyperion series, but not having something to compare to made it difficult to know for sure. Also, note typo - you wrote 3+4 where you meant 4+5.

[SonicMan46]

The Hyperion cd of Spohr's 4th & 5th arrived today,so I've now got one! Unusually for a new cd,I played the third item,Symphony No5,first,so I could compare it with the Marco Polo performances. Of course,these are the ones to get & you notice the difference immediately. I'm not a musician,so I have to go by my ears & it's not just the improvement in sound quality. The Hyperion performance seems to bring out more of the character of the music,there's more contrast,atmosphere,you name it!.............................

Thanks for the comparison to the MP performances of the 5th Symphony - as mentioned before that is the only Hyperion symphony disc that I own - just checked at BRO HERE for Spohr offerings (they usually sell Hyperion single CDs for $6.99); now there are a few Hyperion offerings, including the excellent Gaudier Ensemble doing the Nonet & Octet & a bunch of varied Marco Polo discs available, BUT NONE of the Hyperion symphony recordings which does surprise me, i.e. I can't imagine those CDs selling much @ the prices on Amazon - perfect fodder for a BRO bulk purchase! 

[cilgwyn]

Thank you mc ukrneal! I don't wish to confuse! I meant,4 & 5,of course!! Oh deary me,but it's getting near tea time & the less cultured side of me is preoccupied with F-O-O-D & it's going to be a very tasty fish pie!!

A thought occured to me! I have recently been spending more time 'here' than on the Havergal Brian thread!!What's happening to me?! Not a mid life crisis,I hope! I wonder if anyone else will follow me here (from there)? Possibly/probably,not! I have a feeling Spohr deserves more than 5 pages;although,if you count the ones on the old forum,he's got (if memory serves me,correctly?) over ten! I note,this is a composer with both a society in the USA & Great Britain! And a competition named after him!!

Now,for that fish pie!!

[cilgwyn]

Yes,SonicMan46 & after hearing this cd the temptation to hear the Hyperion performance of No3,is definitely there. Yet,the MP performance of No5 isn't so bad I'm willing to spend more......at least,not right now!

And then there's that 'box'!!

[Sergeant Rock]

Fingers crossed,eh,Sarge?!!

I went overboard    Ordered the CPO 2/8 also after reading the blurb at JPC which ended:  "Howard Griffiths once again presents a gripping interpretation informed by historical performance practice." We'll see. And yes, keeping my fingers crossed for a decent performance.


Sarge

[cilgwyn]

The Cpo is supposed to be the next best,after Hyperion! Well it would be! And listening to this Hyperion cd of 4 & 5,now I've got more time,I think there's quite obviously no comparison! Probably! To be fair to Walter,I can only compare No 5. The sound quality helps,too. The Marco Polo is okay,but with the Hyperion you get the feeling of vista's opening up,like the painting on the front! And it's as if you can suddenly hear all kinds of detail in Spohr's orchestration,woodwind chirrups,and so on. Ear tickling stuff!
And here is the bad news Sarge,listening to No 4,I'm inclined to think that however much I enjoy No 3,this one is even better! The orchestration is quite gorgeous. Spohr's inspiration seems at a very high level here. If you think his inspiration runs high at all! A lovely symphony. Well,I like it!

I can't help wondering what Shelley & his orchestra do with No 7? A very intriguing symphony in terms of the way it is worked out,but unfortunately,and I hate to 'echo' 'the Hurwitz',it did sound shapeless & 'samey' in the Marco Polo performance. But such an intriguing concept & Spohr,obviously,went to so much trouble over it. Listening to these performances,I have a strong feeling I may be inclined to change my opinion when I hear the Hyperion performances.