Guillaume de Machaut (c.1300-1377)

[Roy Bland]

No, it seems to have been written by Antonino Riccardo Luciani for the TV series

TNX

[Mandryka]

Listening to this 1973 recording and  what's striking me most, as often the case in SdFM from this period, is the will to make the music contrapuntally interesting, whether that's through the juxtaposition of contrasting human voices (and, love it or loathe it, it's undeniable that Binkley and Ramm makes  a characterful combination when they sing together!), or through the instrumentation. Binkley's lute music is impressively refined and intelligent. In some of the songs the counterpoint is so interesting it might as well be in the ars subtilior style (eg the two part song  quant à moi /amour et beauté )

They have a distinctive approach to sound, which is small scale and relaxed, totally different from other contemporary groups like Sequentia or Gothic Voices, I like their ideas about how to project sound in this music.

[Mandryka]

My attention was grabbed, and I mean I was strapped to my seat, when I stumbled across the song, Dame si vous m'estes lointaine. Everyone sings it -- Gothic Voices, Lucien Kandel, David Munrow. But I think not one of them comes close to the performance on this CD for beauty, alien beauty, and good judgement about tempo.

I got in trouble here once for saying that I was enjoying Ars Antiqua de Paris play De La Rue. I have a feeling this Machaut recording is going to become a favourite. I haven't heard the mass.

[Mandryka]

https://youtube.com/v/vSOegklFtn0

Not sure what to say about this almost madrigalesque mass performance with a viol, two barytones and a countertenor.

[San Antone]

https://youtube.com/v/vSOegklFtn0

Not sure what to say about this almost madrigalesque mass performance with a viol, two barytones and a countertenor.

It is not bad, the singing is very good and the addition of the vielle is not nearly as intrusive as a horn or organ since it blends nicely with the voices.  OVPP is preferable IMO to the larger ensembles, and these three singers handle the polyphony handily.

But what is the MEC Early Music Consort?

[Mandryka]

It is not bad, the singing is very good and the addition of the vielle is not nearly as intrusive as a horn or organ since it blends nicely with the voices.  OVPP is preferable IMO to the larger ensembles, and these three singers handle the polyphony handily.

Yes, I agree I think, is there a reason for using the viol? I mean, is there a lot of music in the score which isn't obviously associated with words? Maybe they were just four musicians who wanted to find a way to play it because they liked it.

Everyone seems to want to say vielle here, but isn't it another words for viola da gamba? I'm never sure about instruments, there are so many of 'em!

[San Antone]

Yes, I agree I think, is there a reason for using the viol? I mean, is there a lot of music in the score which isn't obviously associated with words? Maybe they were just four musicians who wanted to find a way to play it because they liked it.

Everyone seems to want to say vielle here, but isn't it another words for viola da gamba? I'm never sure about instruments, there are so many of 'em!

Here's the description of a vielle: The vielle /viˈɛl/ is a European bowed stringed instrument used in the Medieval period, similar to a modern violin but with a somewhat longer and deeper body, three to five gut strings, and a leaf-shaped pegbox with frontal tuning pegs, sometimes with a figure-8 shaped body.



I won't debate the use of instruments in Machaut's messe.   

[Mandryka]

Ah yes, I remember vielles now.

Listening to that performance of the mass with the vielle, it's just not for me I think, though I may have enjoyed being at the concert. It may well be well sung in some sense but the countertenor just doesn't excite my imagination.

I listened to Lucian Kandel this morning with the mass, and particularly enjoyed the organ in the Kyrie /Christie /Kyrie

[prémont]

Ah yes, I remember vielles now.

Listening to that performance of the mass with the vielle, it's just not for me I think, though I may have enjoyed being at the concert. It may well be well sung in some sense but the countertenor just doesn't excite my imagination.

I listened to Lucian Kandel this morning with the mass, and particularly enjoyed the organ in the Kyrie /Christie /Kyrie

The scoring in this recording is:

Triplum: countertenor
Motetus: vielle
Contratenor: baryton
Tenor(cantus firmus): baryton

The sophisticated effect of this mass depends much upon the interplay between the two upper parts, which for that reason ought to be sung by two similar voices, ideally two high tenors. In the same way the two lower parts ask for similar voice-quality, ideally two basses. In this version the mass is transposed upwards and the interplay between the two upper parts is spoilt by using so different timbres. Other than that I am not a great fan of the unsubstantiated use of countertenors in Medieval music. The interpretation here is also much too "sweet" for Machaut's often "raw" harmonies. So from me: Thumbs down.

[Mandryka]

https://www.youtube.com/v/iKs9DO6F0pQ&ab_channel=AppleKadenz

Vocaloid  is a computer program. You input a score and it turns it into singing, the voices are synthetic and pop.

The above is the Gloria of Machaut's mass.

[Carlo Gesualdo]

Guillaume DE machaut was a bridge between Ars Nova and Ars Subtilior, some song's of his are almost if not Ars subtilior starting way before it was coined.

''Python le fabuleus serpent'' is strangely bold and daring
Or the longest song recorded during this era the early 14Th century ''Longement me sui tenus ' le lay de bon esperance'' is a progressive kilometric song of 22+ minutes this is unusual to me.

Than there are two great offerings that would subject Guillaume DE Machaut was the first instigator of Ars Subtilior, Solage & Machaut The Unknown Lover by ensemble Gothic Voices (a most own).

What about another album which featured strange song's of Machaut, the delightfull, Unrequited music of Guillaume DE Machaut by ensemble Liber Unusualis?

What in your mind is thecnically Machaut Boldest song's or work has he done motets, I heard also Isorythmic Motets too. What is Machaut  plausible Ars Subtilior repertory?

[Mandryka]

Guillaume DE machaut was a bridge between Ars Nova and Ars Subtilior, some song's of his are almost if not Ars subtilior starting way before it was coined.

''Python le fabuleus serpent'' is strangely bold and daring
Or the longest song recorded during this era the early 14Th century ''Longement me sui tenus ' le lay de bon esperance'' is a progressive kilometric song of 22+ minutes this is unusual to me.

Than there are two great offerings that would subject Guillaume DE Machaut was the first instigator of Ars Subtilior, Solage & Machaut The Unknown Lover by ensemble Gothic Voices (a most own).

What about another album which featured strange song's of Machaut, the delightfull, Unrequited music of Guillaume DE Machaut by ensemble Liber Unusualis?

What in your mind is thecnically Machaut Boldest song's or work has he done motets, I heard also Isorythmic Motets too. What is Machaut  plausible Ars Subtilior repertory?

I used to have a thread on the motets - here

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28622.msg1232296.html#msg1232296

[SonicMan46]

Thanks to San Antone & Mandryka for the discussion in this Machaut thread - detailed, erudite, stimulating and controversial regarding some of the 'practices' of the music performances back in the 14th century.  I've been going through my 'Early Music' collection in the last few weeks - not large, but representative (IMO) - been doing a little culling and also additions; posting mainly in the early age music thread - Mandryka has been my main advisor! 

Well, I'm up to Machaut and own just the recordings shown below; of course, the Ensemble Gilles Binchois is 3 discs, and only the first disc in the Munrow set has music by Machaut.  After reading this REVIEW from 2015 on the Messe de Nostre Dame, the Binchois Ensemble's recording seems well regarded - due to the seminal importance of this work, I'd like to have another recording, so which might be a good option?  I'm planning to listen to the Marcel Peres recording on Spotify, but sounds like a 'devious interpretation'?

Of course, the next 'road block' for me is how to get a handle on Machaut's songs - there were so many and I suspect 'duplication' is a big issue in collecting multiple CDs (well over a half dozen are now available on BRO at bargain prices but how to decide) - I already have 3 discs of his songs which may not be considered the best interpretations - any advice on how to get started.  Thanks all for any help.  Dave

     

[Mandryka]

Thanks to San Antone & Mandryka for the discussion in this Machaut thread - detailed, erudite, stimulating and controversial regarding some of the 'practices' of the music performances back in the 14th century.  I've been going through my 'Early Music' collection in the last few weeks - not large, but representative (IMO) - been doing a little culling and also additions; posting mainly in the early age music thread - Mandryka has been my main advisor! 

Well, I'm up to Machaut and own just the recordings shown below; of course, the Ensemble Gilles Binchois is 3 discs, and only the first disc in the Munrow set has music by Machaut.  After reading this REVIEW from 2015 on the Messe de Nostre Dame, the Binchois Ensemble's recording seems well regarded - due to the seminal importance of this work, I'd like to have another recording, so which might be a good option?  I'm planning to listen to the Marcel Peres recording on Spotify, but sounds like a 'devious interpretation'?

Of course, the next 'road block' for me is how to get a handle on Machaut's songs - there were so many and I suspect 'duplication' is a big issue in collecting multiple CDs (well over a half dozen are now available on BRO at bargain prices but how to decide) - I already have 3 discs of his songs which may not be considered the best interpretations - any advice on how to get started.  Thanks all for any help.  Dave

     

My advice to you would be to try a CD with a style of interpretation very different from any of the ones you have - either one of the ones by Marc Mauillon. There are three: La Remède de Fortune, Mon Chant vous envoie and L'amoureuse tourment.   The latter would be a stimulating challenge for you I think. Or the CD called Unrequited from the ensemble LiberUnusualis.

If you're open to another recording with the mass, then I would say the same. You could consider Rene Clemencic's Machaut double CD and Jeremy Summerly's on Naxos (both of which are great favourites of mine.) Both come with a nice selection of songs.

[SonicMan46]

My advice to you would be to try a CD with a style of interpretation very different from any of the ones you have - either one of the ones by Marc Mauillon. There are three: La Remède de Fortune, Mon Chant vous envoie and L'amoureuse tourment.   The latter would be a stimulating challenge for you I think. Or the CD called Unrequited from the ensemble LiberUnusualis.

If you're open to another recording with the mass, then I would say the same. You could consider Rene Clemencic's Machaut double CD and Jeremy Summerly's on Naxos (both of which are great favourites of mine.) Both come with a nice selection of songs.

Hi Mandryka - thanks for your suggestions: 1) I'd like to add another recording of the mass and listened to most of two options on Spotify this morning, shown below; I definitely liked the Summerly better and I've been to Reims Cathedral, so another attraction; and 2) As to the songs, I spent an hour or so typing in the 5 discs of Machaut songs that I currently own, amount to over 70 w/ some duplications, esp. in the ballades - not sure that I need any more, but will look at your recommendations.  Thanks again!  Dave

   

[SonicMan46]

My advice to you would be to try a CD with a style of interpretation very different from any of the ones you have - either one of the ones by Marc Mauillon. There are three: La Remède de Fortune, Mon Chant vous envoie and L'amoureuse tourment.   The latter would be a stimulating challenge for you I think. Or the CD called Unrequited from the ensemble Liber Unusualis................

Well, I was able to find all 4 recordings above on Spotify and put together a nearly 4 1/2 hr playlist, so should get a good feel for how these performances vary from the ones I own; also, compared the recordings on two of the discs w/ my list of already owned Machaut 'songs'; there was nearly a 50% overlap which would likely dissuade me from adding (especially since some of these CDs are rather expensive these days) - lot of listening ahead; BUT will go ahead and order the Summerly mass performance.  Dave

[Mandryka]

Well, I was able to find all 4 recordings above on Spotify and put together a nearly 4 1/2 hr playlist, so should get a good feel for how these performances vary from the ones I own; also, compared the recordings on two of the discs w/ my list of already owned Machaut 'songs'; there was nearly a 50% overlap which would likely dissuade me from adding (especially since some of these CDs are rather expensive these days) - lot of listening ahead; BUT will go ahead and order the Summerly mass performance.  Dave

Yes, I listened to the songs on the Summerly CD this morning after making that post, and they were better than I had remembered in fact.

Re Mauillon, one reason his La Remède de Fortune is interesting is that he does all the music from the manuscript, he doesn't cut it down like Vellard. So for example you have a complaint which lasts over 40 minutes. I think just the experience of listening to that complaint attentively, following the text, is a fantastic baptism of fire. This is what they did in the 14th century!

[SonicMan46]

Yes, I listened to the songs on the Summerly CD this morning after making that post, and they were better than I had remembered in fact.

Re Mauillon, one reason his La Remède de Fortune is interesting is that he does all the music from the manuscript, he doesn't cut it down like Vellard. So for example you have a complaint which lasts over 40 minutes. I think just the experience of listening to that complaint attentively, following the text, is a fantastic baptism of fire. This is what they did in the 14th century!

Well, I had downloaded the Brilliant booklet on those narrative notes w/ the English translations - not sure that I'll be able to take 40 mins of listening to Machaut's poetry -    Since I don't understand the 'ancient' French dialect (I'm assuming the actor, Jean-Paul Racodon who is reading these 'interludes' between the music is speaking in the dialect, don't know?), reading the English translations for me just does not get the same feeling across (probably the reason I don't watch foreign films anymore w/ subtitiles - just not the same).  But the sound of his voice is wonderful and wish that I could understand the words.  A fascinating production - thanks for your thoughts.  Dave

[Selig]

Maybe useful discographical overview of the Messe