Leonard Bernstein conducting

Started by PerfectWagnerite, June 04, 2007, 07:57:55 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Karl Henning

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 31, 2022, 09:09:50 AM
There is a Facebook discussion (which I'll specify by Message to anyone interested), with blistering comments on using a non-Jewish actor and nasal prosthetics to portray a Jewish individual. The person who started the thread is so definite, and so aggrieved, that I will avoid wading into those waters there. As far as I'm concerned, it's the acting that matters. (I have a play about a Jewish college student myself. I have used a Jewish actor in the role, I have rejected a Jewish actor whose demeanor was too stereotypically "Jewish," and I've used a gay Italian-American lapsed Catholic who gave an excellent performance.)

The acting is what matters, indeed.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Iota

Quote from: relm1 on May 31, 2022, 05:17:09 AM
Couldn't figure out exactly what thread this post belongs to, but crazy how much Bradley Cooper looks like Leonard Bernstein in the new biopic he is directing.  All these pictures are of Bradley Cooper!






Brilliant!


Quote from: Brian on May 31, 2022, 08:39:34 AM
Guaranteed Oscar nomination for makeup, wow. Cooper is a smart filmmaker, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he does with to shape Lenny's bio into a movie.

+1

DavidW

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 31, 2022, 09:09:50 AM
There is a Facebook discussion (which I'll specify by Message to anyone interested), with blistering comments on using a non-Jewish actor and nasal prosthetics to portray a Jewish individual. The person who started the thread is so definite, and so aggrieved, that I will avoid wading into those waters there. As far as I'm concerned, it's the acting that matters. (I have a play about a Jewish college student myself. I have used a Jewish actor in the role, I have rejected a Jewish actor whose demeanor was too stereotypically "Jewish," and I've used a gay Italian-American lapsed Catholic who gave an excellent performance.)

That is the point of acting is for an actor to embody someone that is not themselves and walk in their shoes.  But... there is an argument to made that this one issue is insensitive.  If Bradley Cooper is indeed using prosthetics... that is not black face but it starts leaning that way.  While I personally don't have a problem, I don't think I would out of hand dismiss any person that does.  I think they do have some right to be mad.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: DavidW on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 AM
That is the point of acting is for an actor to embody someone that is not themselves and walk in their shoes.  But... there is an argument to made that this one issue is insensitive.  If Bradley Cooper is indeed using prosthetics... that is not black face but it starts leaning that way.  While I personally don't have a problem, I don't think I would out of hand dismiss any person that does.  I think they do have some right to be mad.

But to portray Bernstein accurately, the actor would need to be not only Jewish but homosexual or bisexual - prosthetic nose or not. The FB poster is angry only about the Jewish part of it, and appears unaware of Bernstein's sexuality.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

vandermolen

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 31, 2022, 09:09:50 AM
There is a Facebook discussion (which I'll specify by Message to anyone interested), with blistering comments on using a non-Jewish actor and nasal prosthetics to portray a Jewish individual. The person who started the thread is so definite, and so aggrieved, that I will avoid wading into those waters there. As far as I'm concerned, it's the acting that matters. (I have a play about a Jewish college student myself. I have used a Jewish actor in the role, I have rejected a Jewish actor whose demeanor was too stereotypically "Jewish," and I've used a gay Italian-American lapsed Catholic who gave an excellent performance.)
I totally agree with you. It's the acting that matters.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Roasted Swan

This is a real "walking on eggshells" topic!  We don't expect actors playing murderers to have killed people to add authenticity to their role but somehow race or sexual orientation does seem to require a performer with that background.  In the UK not so long ago a writer/director insisted that the actors in his piece were gay to play gay roles.  As it happens the piece and the actors were genuinely excellent but I don't believe a straight actor would not have been as convincing..... surely that is what acting is all about!

On a different/slightly less serious tangent - it irks me how often the "best actor" Oscar goes to someone impersonating someone else.  For sure the acting often is top notch but my feeling in those instances is that the Oscar is for best impersonation (including makeup!) NOT best acting. 

2019 Renee Zewellger - Judy Garland
2018 Remi Malek - Freddie Mercury
2017 Gary Oldman - Winston Churchill
2014 Eddie Redmayne - Stephen Hawking
2012 Daniel Day Lewis - Abraham Lincoln
2011 Meryl Streep - Margaret Thatcher
2010 Colin Firth - King George VI
2007 Marion Cotillard - Edith Piaf
2006 Forest Whittaker - Idi Amin / Helen Mirren Queen - Elizabeth II
2005 Philip Seymour Hoffman - Truman Capote
2004 Jamie Foxx - Ray Charles

Mirror Image

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 31, 2022, 09:09:50 AM
There is a Facebook discussion (which I'll specify by Message to anyone interested), with blistering comments on using a non-Jewish actor and nasal prosthetics to portray a Jewish individual. The person who started the thread is so definite, and so aggrieved, that I will avoid wading into those waters there. As far as I'm concerned, it's the acting that matters. (I have a play about a Jewish college student myself. I have used a Jewish actor in the role, I have rejected a Jewish actor whose demeanor was too stereotypically "Jewish," and I've used a gay Italian-American lapsed Catholic who gave an excellent performance.)

People bitch and moan about anything these days. There's nothing wrong with a non-Jewish actor playing a Jewish person and vice versa. People just want to be outraged, which speaks ill of our society as a whole.

As for the Bernstein biopic, I don't have any interest in it. I'm not big into these types of films. I prefer fantasy, science fiction, thrillers and action films. I've got a book on Bernstein's biography, I'll just read that. I don't need to watch film about it.

relm1

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 31, 2022, 01:28:18 PM
People bitch and moan about anything these days. There's nothing wrong with a non-Jewish actor playing a Jewish person and vice versa. People just want to be outraged, which speaks ill of our society as a whole.

As for the Bernstein biopic, I don't have any interest in it. I'm not big into these types of films. I prefer fantasy, science fiction, thrillers and action films. I've got a book on Bernstein's biography, I'll just read that. I don't need to watch film about it.

I worked on a film where a Jewish man acted brilliantly as a Palestinian man about racism where he was racist about jews. I had no idea he was actually jewish till I met him!  I was so confused.

Jo498

If they hadn't used such a good makeup/prosthetic they would have bitched about a gentile playing Bernstein and not looking at all like him. It's beyond ridiculous, unless there was a clear case of a jewish Lennie look-alike being available and not being cast in favor of a gentile.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 31, 2022, 12:03:43 PM

On a different/slightly less serious tangent - it irks me how often the "best actor" Oscar goes to someone impersonating someone else.  For sure the acting often is top notch but my feeling in those instances is that the Oscar is for best impersonation (including makeup!) NOT best acting. 

2019 Renee Zewellger - Judy Garland
2018 Remi Malek - Freddie Mercury
2017 Gary Oldman - Winston Churchill
2014 Eddie Redmayne - Stephen Hawking
2012 Daniel Day Lewis - Abraham Lincoln
2011 Meryl Streep - Margaret Thatcher
2010 Colin Firth - King George VI
2007 Marion Cotillard - Edith Piaf
2006 Forest Whittaker - Idi Amin / Helen Mirren Queen - Elizabeth II
2005 Philip Seymour Hoffman - Truman Capote
2004 Jamie Foxx - Ray Charles

I agree. With the exception of a few names here that would've had little visual/audio reference to work with, I find impressions to be less impressive than actors/actresses that create an entirely new persona for a role. Not that this list contains poor performances, just that a lot of the prep already available.

On the subject of the new Bernstein film... I was impressed with Coopers filmmaking style of A Star Is Born, and enjoyed the film overall. If he can bring the same level to his Bernstein film it should be of good quality, but I tend to find most biopics too formulaic and full of clichés. A few biopics that I find unique in their storytelling structure are I'm Not There by Todd Haynes about Bob Dylan, and Ali by Michael Mann.


Brian

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 03, 2022, 05:59:52 AM
I agree. With the exception of a few names here that would've had little visual/audio reference to work with, I find impressions to be less impressive than actors/actresses that create an entirely new persona for a role. Not that this list contains poor performances, just that a lot of the prep already available.

On the subject of the new Bernstein film... I was impressed with Coopers filmmaking style of A Star Is Born, and enjoyed the film overall. If he can bring the same level to his Bernstein film it should be of good quality, but I tend to find most biopics too formulaic and full of clichés. A few biopics that I find unique in their storytelling structure are I'm Not There by Todd Haynes about Bob Dylan, and Ali by Michael Mann.
Glad to see you around, Greg! Another biopic I like for its unusual style and structure is by the same screenwriter as I'm Not There - Love & Mercy featuring Brian Wilson composing "Good Vibrations." The studio scenes are an exhilarating portrait of creativity as it happens.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 03, 2022, 05:59:52 AM
I agree. With the exception of a few names here that would've had little visual/audio reference to work with, I find impressions to be less impressive than actors/actresses that create an entirely new persona for a role. Not that this list contains poor performances, just that a lot of the prep already available.

On the subject of the new Bernstein film... I was impressed with Coopers filmmaking style of A Star Is Born, and enjoyed the film overall. If he can bring the same level to his Bernstein film it should be of good quality, but I tend to find most biopics too formulaic and full of clichés. A few biopics that I find unique in their storytelling structure are I'm Not There by Todd Haynes about Bob Dylan, and Ali by Michael Mann.

I only recently watched "A Star is Born" and was genuinely impressed.  I am certainly interested in seeing this Bernstein film.  Obviously Bernstein was a complex and remarkable character and by all accounts Cooper has been fascinated by this subject for a long time.

On a slight tangent I enjoyed "Tick Tick BOOM" a lot.  Nominally a biopic but since no-one has much/any sense of what the central character Jonathan Larson was like in real life there is no sense of "impersonation" here.  The music is very well performed and Andrew Garfield as Larson is excellent.  Of course it helps if you enjoy Musical Theatre to start off with which I do.

staxomega

#312
Quote from: Brian on May 31, 2022, 08:39:34 AM
Guaranteed Oscar nomination for makeup, wow. Cooper is a smart filmmaker, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he does with to shape Lenny's bio into a movie.

If he pulls it off it will also put him in a good position for winning best lead. Most of the Academy voters would be of the age when Bernstein was a popular American figure.

edit: my favorite performance from him is in Silver Linings Playbook, I don't think it's that easy to convincingly portray that kind of vulnerability.