Allan Holdsworth

[Scion7]

VERY 'really.'
And Holdsworth's opinions of his recordings, while interesting, are not the last word as far as the AUDIENCE is concerned.

[James]

VERY 'really.' And Holdsworth's opinions of his recordings, while interesting, are not the last word as far as the AUDIENCE is concerned.

Nah .. it was Hiseman's baby really  .. and most importantly not representative of Allan's true/full vision (the focus of this thread). He hadn't been thru enough yet to get to where he eventually got as a musician, forming his own groups. I'm glad he moved on quickly from Tempest after 1 album .. much, much better things were to come.

[Scion7]

Nah.  His best work was with the bands - solo, it's too aimless.

[James]

Nah.  His best work was with the bands - solo, it's too aimless.

It's hardly his work with those bands, it's hardly him as a mature musician at all .. and his own personal work, his mature work, full flower .. aimless? So not true. Your ears are underdeveloped.

[James]

I.O.U. didn't get a proper release on a major label, and I came back to that one after the disappointing ROAD TIME came out - immediately there was a sense of loss in Allan's composing - he still played as great as ever, but those records on down the line were much less interesting.

I see you added this later .. Velvet Darkness was released without his consent and that is what I ment by "not proper". Not the case with I.O.U. & Road GAMES EP (not ROAD TIME, though he had issues with this one as it was involved with a major label who were interfering/meddling with his creative control), both have fantastic stuff on them and are much more 'interesting' than a lot of what came before, great compositions, great players, earth-shattering solos .. and are the best portraits of Allan himself at that time, and certainly more-so than anything before .. and many of the compositions from both have remained in his touring 'songbook' as vehicles for group improvisation even today. Both albums are widely regarded classics, and even then .. he really hit his stride afterward and kept getting better and really took things to higher levels with later recordings. So much great stuff.

[Scion7]

You're correct, my error - ROAD GAMES.  As you can see, I don't play it often enough to remember.  :-)
In fact, it's been some 8 years probably since I had it on the turntable.

As far as you other views, nah.

[San Antone]

This one is enjoyable

[Scion7]

Another one I have not played in a while.

[Scion7]

You know I realize he is a supreme technician, James -
the issue is the compositions ... and with Tempest, UK, New Lifetime, Bruford, and Jean-Luc he had a better framework to solo in.
When he can condense his ideas into a few burning seconds, it comes off better than what Robert Fripp calls the "idle, dexterous, technical" playing.
The structure of the solo on Bruford-Hell's Bells or Tempest-Brother he was thinking clearly and building up something pretty special - in the manner of a Ritchie Blackmore (not the style, of course) - saying all that was important to say in 30-60 seconds.  The speedy "scat" runs in Brother were especially impressive and off the wall.

Also, in the Tempest band he had excellent players around him and a highly literate songwriting - miles away from such crap these days.
That band really made an impression on the audience of the concert I attended in London - but  - Allan gets itchy feet and always wants change, to his financial setback, for whatever artistic sastisfaction he gets.

[escher]

You know I realize he is a supreme technician, James -
the issue is the compositions ... and with Tempest, UK, New Lifetime, Bruford, and Jean-Luc he had a better framework to solo in.
When he can condense his ideas into a few burning seconds, it comes off better than what Robert Fripp calls the "idle, dexterous, technical" playing.
The structure of the solo on Bruford-Hell's Bells or Tempest-Brother he was thinking clearly and building up something pretty special - in the manner of a Ritchie Blackmore (not the style, of course) - saying all that was important to say in 30-60 seconds.  The speedy "scat" runs in Brother were especially impressive and off the wall.

Also, in the Tempest band he had excellent players around him and a highly literate songwriting - miles away from such crap these days.
That band really made an impression on the audience of the concert I attended in London - but  - Allan gets itchy feet and always wants change, to his financial setback, for whatever artistic sastisfaction he gets.

I feel the opposite. I agree that he very often does not have the gift of synthesis (and I REALLY agree), but the most interesting aspect of his playing is his harmonic language and that is expressed at best in his albums. Not all his stuff is successful (actually I find a lot of it boring), but at his best (pieces like Tokyo dream, Shallow sea, City nights, Funnels, Looking glass etc) he's one of the most interesting guitar composers, far more original than most of the bands where he has to play over more conventional stuff.
I would not care too much for his music otherwise, his speed and legatos are phenomenal but we live in a world of shredders and I find most of them terrible. What put him above the vast majority of them is exactly the originality of his harmonic conception and his best tunes.

[James]

You know I realize he is a supreme technician, James - the issue is the compositions ... and with Tempest, UK, New Lifetime, Bruford, and Jean-Luc he had a better framework to solo in.

He's a great musician. He had a narrower framework to work within in those bands, and the context is easier to grasp .. his own music/vision is actually much more advanced & sophisticated. And there are several great compositions .. more-Allan and much, much more innovative and memorable.

[James]

I feel the opposite. I agree that he very often does not have the gift of synthesis (and I REALLY agree), but the most interesting aspect of his playing is his harmonic language and that is expressed at best in his albums. Not all his stuff is successful (actually I find a lot of it boring), but at his best (pieces like Tokyo dream, Shallow sea, City nights, Funnels, Looking glass etc) he's one of the most interesting guitar composers, far more original than most of the bands where he has to play over more conventional stuff. I would not care too much for his music if all I would heard was his speed and his legatos, that's impressive but we live in a world of shredders. What put him above the vast majority of them is exactly the originality of his harmonic conception and his best tunes.

There is more to Allan, and what makes him so special than just his deep approach to harmony. And what do you mean he does not have the gift of synthesis? Allan's music is built on his very own logic, the melody chords, the voicings of them, his approach to lines & improvising as a soloist and within his grps, his execution, tone etc .. the way it's built is completely him, his own secret garden and completely unique and not cliché. It's true that he absorbed certain major influences like Debussy & Trane .. but it was never in a mimic fashion he just internalized what he heard. The results of what he does is completely natural, thoughtful and organic.

[escher]

There is more to Allan, and what makes him so special than just his deep approach to harmony. And what do you mean he does not have the gift of synthesis? Allan's music is built on his very own logic, the melody chords, the voicings of them, his approach to lines & improvising as a soloist and within his grps, his execution, tone etc .. the way it's built is completely him, his own secret garden and completely unique and not cliché. It's true that he absorbed certain major influences like Debussy & Trane .. but it was never in a mimic fashion he just internalized what he heard. The results of what he does is completely natural, thoughtful and organic.

I'm not saying that he was copying someone. But while I like Holdsworth (and Coltrane, and Davis, and Sun Ra and many other musicians famous for their extremely long improvisations) I'm also a fan of sinthesys and not of extreme indulgence and sometimes I miss the times when jazz musicians had to necessarily say what they have to say in few choruses.

[James]

I'm not saying that he was copying someone. But while I like Holdsworth (and Coltrane, and Davis, and Sun Ra and many other musicians famous for their extremely long improvisations) I'm also a fan of sinthesys and not of extreme indulgence and sometimes I miss the times when jazz musicians had to necessarily say what they have to say in few choruses.

Is English your native language? Perhaps you are using the wrong word because I'm still not getting what you are meaning. Allan is certainly not guilty of self-indulgence as a soloist, live or on recordings. Things are timed & paced just about right. His albums & compositions are carefully crafted .. and the solos are so earth-shattering most of the time. He's one of the most gifted soloists you'll ever hear, and so lyrical.

[James]

As far as you other views, nah.

What a lazy response. Based on what you have been saying thus far you don't know Allan's music much at all.

[escher]

Allan is certainly not guilty of self-indulgence as a soloist, live or on recordings.

Personally I disagree, I'm a big fan of him but for me he's definitely a over-indulgent guitarist.

[James]

Personally I disagree, I'm a big fan of him but for me he's definitely a over-indulgent guitarist.

Define his over-indulgence then .. because it is simply not so. If he's over-indulgent than so is every other major jazz player, electric or otherwise.

[Scion7]

So with all those last posts talking to yourself, did you get it all out?   

(hint: there's a Modify button on here)

Cheers!

[James]

Neither of you seem to have really absorbed Allan's music well enough in order to state a truly authoritative viewpoint.

[Scion7]

Not sure who "either of you" refers to, son, but I was there at the beginning.
Making yourself the "god of Holdsworth" won't wash.

You've got to learn to deal with people not sharing your opinion better.