Mozart - String Quartets

[George]

Sorry!

NO worries, buddy. It took me over ten years to appreciate the Julliard LvB SQ and now there are one of my favorites!

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for being so good a sport, George!

[Mandryka]

Which is better, Smetana Quartet on Denon or Smetana Quartet on Testament?

[Jo498]

I think most people prefer Testament (EMI). But there are only a few quartets on Testament (4? I have one disc with K 421, 428 and 464, probably it was two LPs and there is another) but all 6 on Denon. I have to admit that I never compared the ones I have (I lack the Denon disc with K 387/428). They are all good, the earlier one probably more lively, the later ones with better sound.

[Mandryka]

Wel, I've just ordered the Denon set, apart from 387 and 428 which is on Tidal etc. It was listening to that recording which made me curious. I have a recording with the Hunt quartet which I think (but I'm not sure) is the EMI, but I prefer the style and sound of Denon.

Having said that, something tells me that it's inevitable that I'll get all the EMI at some point in the future!

Had a day listening to Mozart/Haydn quartets today, Smetana and Hagen on DG. Hagen are interesting but I just don't like it, too operatic. Has anyone heard the newish recording on Myrios? I wonder if it's the same style as the DG.

I saw them do some Haydn in concert a few years ago and I loved it.

[Jo498]

The Hagen have become ever more mannered since they left DG, I believe. I have only one of their Myrios disks (with a re-recording of K 428 + Weber opp. 5+9 + Beethoven op.59/2) and they do some strange rubato in the last (I think) movement which I find exaggerated and mannered. AFAIR I liked their DG Mozart a lot. It is operatic and some movements are already somewhat mannered but it is not that exaggerated.

The Smetana apparently never recorded all the late Mozart quartets. Apparently the "Prussian" quartets are missing but there is a K 499 (in not so great sound on a BBC live disk) and they did all 6 *quintets* with Suk. Some find the latter too weighty but I love them as well (also Denon from Japan).

[Mandryka]

The Hagen have become ever more mannered since they left DG, I believe. I have only one of their Myrios disks (with a re-recording of K 428 + Weber opp. 5+9 + Beethoven op.59/2) and they do some strange rubato in the last (I think) movement which I find exaggerated and mannered. AFAIR I liked their DG Mozart a lot. It is operatic and some movements are already somewhat mannered but it is not that exaggerated.

I've heard the Myrios Mozart now, or rather I've heard 387, it's completely original I think and whether you like it or not, it's something to hear.

[Jo498]

I had not even been aware of the Hagen's more recent K 387/458 disc. As I said, I liked their DG Mozart a lot but I am not really looking into duplications with those newer recordings. (And while I think that they tend to overdo it sometimes in their more recent recordings, the next Myrios I'd get is probably the re-recording of LvB's op.135 + two from op.18. I wonder how long it will take until we get op.59/3 and the remainder of op.18 (2 +6))

But back to Mozart. The Diapason chamber music collection (probably cheaper in .fr or .de than in the .com link below) supposedly contains the only CD version (taken from LPs, apparently CBS/Sony never put these recordings on CD, not even in Japan) of the Juilliard (ca. 1959) recordings of the quartets dedicated to Haydn. There is considerable distortion (that sounds often like inner grove distortion to me) but overall the sound is pretty good. Listening again, I think that the sound is somewhat of a distraction. I am not experienced enough with vinyl transfers but it sounds like pretty bad distortion at times for a recording from ca. 1960. I tend to think that it is due to vinyl/transfer quality, not to the original recording but I actually find it more distracting that e.g. the shellac fried eggs sound.

The rest of that box is a mixed bunch. There are only two more string quartets, K 575 and 590 in 1950s mono recordings of the Amadeus Q, nothing so special IMO although this quartet sounds better here than in some of their later recordings where Brainin's vibrato and mannerisms stick out, he apparently was better behaved when younger.

[asin]B00KB4CG48[/asin]

[Mandryka]

I've started to listen to this, it's good, with a definite feeling of live. Excellent sound, better than DG I think. Anyway, if anyone wants the sound files, which I've ripped from the video because I'm not interested in the video, then they can PM me.

[Mandryka]

     


I just listened  to the Hunt in both of these. The biggest difference is in the adagio -- you'll get the idea if I say that the EMI is 7,07 and the Teldec is 7,5x. The EMI doesn't sound rushed and the Teldec doesn't sound too slow. The Teldec is maybe a bit more incisive -- just just sharper accents, but I think we're talking real subtleties if it's the case at all, both are hugely enjoyable. The sound on both is fine, better on emi but both are fine.

One to avoid is this SACD from Japan



It's been remastered in a way which brings out the first violin at the expense of the others.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Mandryka, I hope your hat is non-toxic.

Here's what I did. I found my FLAC rip of the old Teldec release and extracted the first movement of K387 to a WAV file (uncompressed waveforms). It was the brown-cover release, and I used XLD to convert FLAC to WAV.



Then I purchased the same movement as a lossless FLAC download of the newer black-cover release from Presto Classical.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7965516--the-alban-berg-quartet-the-teldec-recordings-1971-79


I converted the new one to a WAV file as well (using XLD).

The two files were not identical, the old one was slightly longer, by a second.

Then I ran a c-code I had written which reads the wav file data and prints it out in plain text, so the numbers are human readable. The old one had a little more silence padding the beginning of the track. But other than that the two file are number-by-number identical. I've included a screen shot where I am comparing the two outputs side by side (new track in the left window, old track in the right window). Each window has three columns of numbers. The left column is the sample number (the time) where there are 44,100 samples per second. The next two columns are left and right channel waveform amplitude. You'll notice the time is a little shifted (by 1155 samples, about 1/40 of a second) but the second and third columns are identical, comparing the left and right windows. I.e., the left channel waveform is 503, 497, 553, 636, etc, for old and new files, and the right channel is 1010, 846, 699, 580, etc, for old and new files. The presto download of the black-cover release and my rip of the older brown-cover release are absolutely identical, except for a fraction of a second of silence clipped off the beginning of the new track.

So what can I say? At least one track of the brown-cover CD set and the lossless download of the black-cover set are absolutely identical. I guess I can't prove that the black-cover CDs are identical, because Presto might have sold me a rip an old release.

If you can make any FLAC files of your lossless rips available I can compare those to my brown-cover release as well.

[Mandryka]

If you can make any FLAC files of your lossless rips available I can compare those to my brown-cover release as well.

Done

[Madiel]

I'm confused. Why is there any doubt about whether Alban Berg on Teldec is the same as Alban Berg on Teldec?

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I'm confused. Why is there any doubt about whether Alban Berg on Teldec is the same as Alban Berg on Teldec?

The question is whether the most recent release is simply a duplicate of the original CD release (which dates back to 1987 or so) or whether they have gone back to the original tapes and made a new master. I had the set on LP and the original CD master did not have the same silky violin sound as the LPs did.

[George]

I have some experience comparing different masterings using Audacity. I compare the EQ of each, rather than the peaks because sometimes things are simply transferred at a higher or lower level. If I can be of assistance, let me know, guys.

[Mandryka]

And meanwhile I am absolutely convinced that when I got the big set it sounded much better than my old red one, silkier, to use Scarpia's word.

But I could be wrong, I may have been drunk at the time . . .

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

And meanwhile I am absolutely convinced that when I got the big set it sounded much better than my old red one, silkier, to use Scarpia's word.

But I could be wrong, I may have been drunk at the time . . .

I certainly notice that my auditory perception varies - I might find a recording grating or shrill at one listening session, and pleasant at another. Ears are not microphones, they will react differently depending on your physical and emotional state.

Before I did the numerical comparison I tried listening to samples from Presto Classical, the old and new releases in A B alternation. It was rather awkward because it takes like 10 seconds for the stream to start, so you listen to one and have to wait before you can listen to the other. On one track I though I heard a difference, on another track I didn't, then I went back to the first track and didn't hear the difference anymore. That's when I decided I had to be quantitative.

I have some experience comparing different masterings using Audacity. I compare the EQ of each, rather than the peaks because sometimes things are simply transferred at a higher or lower level. If I can be of assistance, let me know, guys.

Thanks for the offer. My goal is to determine if they are literally identical. I've been dumping the binary data from the audio files and doing a code-by-code comparison. The old CD turned out to be identical to the digital download of the new release, next I'm trying a comparison of rips of the old and new CDs.

[Madiel]

The question is whether the most recent release is simply a duplicate of the original CD release (which dates back to 1987 or so) or whether they have gone back to the original tapes and made a new master. I had the set on LP and the original CD master did not have the same silky violin sound as the LPs did.

Don't record companies typically make a song and dance about making a new master? If they don't advertise remastering, my default assumption is that there hasn't been any.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Don't record companies typically make a song and dance about making a new master? If they don't advertise remastering, my default assumption is that there hasn't been any.

Mine too. But an amazon reviewer claims it has been remastered and sounds dramatically better. I would tend to discount that except I really like these recordings and find it worth investigating, even though I am likely to be disappointed.

[George]

Thanks for the offer. My goal is to determine if they are literally identical. I've been dumping the binary data from the audio files and doing a code-by-code comparison. The old CD turned out to be identical to the digital download of the new release, next I'm trying a comparison of rips of the old and new CDs.

So if one is transferred at a louder or softer volume than the other, will your method show that?