Pirated music: good thing, bad thing or nothing?

[Madiel]

Already done...

Yeah, except that it's not stealing/theft (despite what record companies would have you believe), and it's not Beethoven people are not stealing from.

I guess "Breaching copyright in recordings of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas" didn't quite have the same ring to it, though.

[Gurn Blanston]

May I suggest it get moved the diner? At this point, it isn't about great recordings, right?

Damn, George, you are SO pushy! Are you from, like, New York or something?   

[Gurn Blanston]

Yeah, except that it's not stealing/theft (despite what record companies would have you believe), and it's not Beethoven people are not stealing from.

I guess "Breaching copyright in recordings of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas" didn't quite have the same ring to it, though.

Lets not be overly literal, I doubt there is anyone here who doesn't know exactly what it means. As it happens, I am not a lawyer...

[Todd]

Increasing cultural irrelevance of the music itself, or of the recording industry?

The former.  The recording industry is changing from mostly being dominated by big companies to big companies, small companies, and artist direct recordings.  More recordings of more material are available now than ever before. 

[Florestan]

There's no such thing as a set penalty for a civil wrong. It's whatever damage you've caused the person you've wronged - in this case, the copyright owner.

This is actually impossible to quantify, isn't it?

I don't know what's happened in Australian cases, except that one attempt to force an ISP to hand over customer names failed, and the government is actually looking at changing the law to make sure it doesn't fail again.

I know that in the US, record companies have tried to go after people on the basis that by sharing, they've helped a LOT of other people also break the law. Some of the record company tactics have been questionable, and have relied on people being scared to fight the claims in court.

Looks like the whole issue is far from being settled, and it will probably never be. 

[Madiel]

This is actually impossible to quantify, isn't it?

It's no more difficult than many other things that courts have to quantify.

At the very least, they could look at all the things you've downloaded without paying, and say "this is how much it would have cost you to buy it. Pay up." That seems pretty quantifiable to me!

[Florestan]

The former.  The recording industry is changing from mostly being dominated by big companies to big companies, small companies, and artist direct recordings.  More recordings of more material are available now than ever before.

But that means that there is an expanding demand for recordings, which in turn implies that the music itself is increasingly relevant, not irrelevant. What am I missing?

[Florestan]

At the very least, they could look at all the things you've downloaded without paying

How can they do that? What law gives them access to one's computer(s) and hard disk(s), provided they can find them? 

EDIT: modified the pronoun in order to make it impersonal.

[Todd]

But that means that there is an expanding demand for recordings, which in turn implies that the music itself is increasingly relevant, not irrelevant. What am I missing?

I was writing about music more broadly, not about classical music, specifically.  And even if the number of available recordings increases, the total sales volume and audience can actually shrink, or remain constant.  I've seen no evidence that classical music has become more relevant over the period that it has interested me.  I have seen the opposite.  By all means, provide some evidence of the increasing relevance of classical music. 

[Florestan]

I was writing about music more broadly, not about classical music, specifically.

Ah, I see.

And even if the number of available recordings increases, the total sales volume and audience can actually shrink, or remain constant.

True, but that would mean that the recording labels or the artists themselves actually record music just for the sake of recording it, without any marketing and/or financial considerations. I find it hard to believe.

  I've seen no evidence that classical music is becoming more relevant over the period that it has interested me.  I have seen the opposite. 

What is the period you refer to, and what evidence do you have for classical music becoming more irrelevant over it?

[Todd]

What is the period you refer to, and what evidence do you have for classical music becoming more irrelevant over it?

Your standard riposte.  When asked to present evidence, you ask for evidence.  Yawn.

[Florestan]

Your standard riposte.  When asked to present evidence, you ask for evidence.  Yawn.

You kidding? You asked me to present evidence for a period you did not specify. How am I supposed to do that?

Furthermore, you made yourself a claim without substantiating it. It was only too logical for me to invite you to practice what you preach.

[Todd]

You kidding? You asked me to present evidence for a period you did not specify. How am I supposed to do that?

You kidding? 

Allow me to illustrate:

According to [reliable, objective sources], over the past [10, 20, 30, 50, 75, 100, other] years, classical recording sales have increased x%, funding for major classical music institutions has increased y% in [worldwide; countries a, b, or c], the average age of concert attendees in [countries or cities d, e, or f] has declined by z%, and more young and middle aged people cite classical music as their favorite form of music in [markets g, h, or i].

Various negative trends have been reported on in this very forum for literally years, not to mention the world at large, and occasionally some positive ones (a Nightline report of increased opera attendance that I posted years ago, for instance) have been posted here, too, and in the world at large.

There, now that I have presented a template, can you actually provide evidence on your own?  Choose your own time period, your own countries, your own metrics.

[Florestan]

Various negative trends have been reported on in this very forum for literally years

Links?

There, now that I have presented a template, can you actually provide evidence on your own?  Choose your own time period, your own countries, your own metrics.

Aha, so you ask me something but you won't take as an answer anything else than what satisfies your own terms and criteria. I'm not playing, thank you.

[San Antone]

Yeah, except that it's not stealing/theft (despite what record companies would have you believe), and it's not Beethoven people are not stealing from.

I guess "Breaching copyright in recordings of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas" didn't quite have the same ring to it, though.

Is is stealing: you are stealing the artist's work and label's product, no differently than stashing a CD under your vest and walking out of a store.

[Todd]

Links?

Aha, so you ask me something but you won't take as an answer anything else than what satisfies your own terms and criteria. I'm not playing, thank you.

Another yawn.

[Florestan]

Another yawn.

Take a cup of coffee, it might help you stay awake. 

[Todd]

Take a cup of coffee, it might help you stay awake.

As it happens, I am halfway through a big cup, but the predictable nature of your replies is acting as a soporific.

[Mandryka]

Positive trends.

One positive trend in Early music is to do with the way the sheer number of recordings has grown. I remember once looking at some evidence for this with Don Satz here - we looked at the growing number of recorded performances of The Goldberg Variations, which is easily obtainable from the Bach Cantatas website. More recently I've been impressed by ambitious projects for new works - The complete keyboard works of Arrauxo for instance, and Samuel Scheidt.

You've seen the same in Beethoven I suppose.

How it relates to sales is problematic. I also think that the artists involved make hardly any money from the projects. My prediction is that we'll see a large number of artisanal performances, produced by academics and amateurs in the best sense of the world, released cheaply via clouds. And live recordings.

This may be progress in a sense.

One general reflection on this discussion. How thin the veneer of civilsation is! To save a few dollars and to get instant satisfaction of a whim, people break the law knowing they won't get caught. I suppose it's like tax evasion.

[merlin]

Since I (most likely) was the person who initially raised this topic, but not under stealing music...

The original hardcopy version of Andrea Lucchesini's LvB sonatas was circa $40.  That version is definitely OOP, and used copies are going for USD230 at amazon.  The hardcopy (discs, holders, and box) is far removed from digital downloads, at whatever SQ.

Presto Classical has the entire set at USD80 for 320kbps mp3s, or USD112 for 16/44 flacs.  This is about as expensive as the used copies, since I would want to burn them to disc (costs for media, cases, and my time).

And if I simply want the op.106 Adagio sostenuto, I have to purchase the complete set. 

amazon usa offers roughly 256kbps downloads -- not good enough for me, especially since the entire set has been uploaded to youtube (perhaps only google can determine if this is "legal" or not), and can be downloaded from there.

Selling digital tracks, whether that be one-at-a-time (they are called "songs" ) or an entire album, is far from a costly venture (one-time cost of purchasing the digital rights, very inexpensive server storage, endless selling of zeros and ones, and no investment in hardcopy materials).

And how much does Andrea receive from all this???