Pirated music: good thing, bad thing or nothing?

[Todd]

How it relates to sales is problematic. I also think that the artists involved make hardly any money from the projects. My prediction is that we'll see a large number of artisanal performances, produced by academics and amateurs in the best sense of the world, released cheaply via clouds. And live recordings.

There are more recordings available now, at lower price to the consumer, than at any time since I have been listening, at least in solo and chamber and small-scale repertoire.  This is good.  (And yes, there are more LvB sonata recordings than one can shake a stick at.)  New, Big Orchestra recordings (NYPO, BP, etc) and new opera recordings have dropped in number compared to the 80s and 90s, and Big Stars are less frequently recorded.  This is probably not good.  I suspect you are right about the future direction of recordings, and some artists have adapted better than others to new delivery methods.  Some artists self-record and post videos on YouTube for free from the get-go.  You gotta get seen (or heard) somehow.  Even in the pop and rock realms, recordings are increasingly used as a form of advertisement for live performances, at least if artists themselves are to be believed.

Most articles I have read about this topic point to long-term decreases in concert attendance and funding troubles for various arts and education institutions, though, of course, managers of such organizations will always say they need more money.  There are bright spots, of course, and classical music recordings and performances will never disappear, but how culturally important is classical music?  In this forum, its importance is likely to be overstated to begin with.  Wander out into the world, and inquire about people's musical tastes and concert attendance behaviors, and classical music isn't even a blip on the radar.  I wonder how many classical composers the random, average American or Briton or even German could name if asked.  I also wonder how many current performing classical artists could be named. 

[Todd]

Presto Classical has the entire set at USD80 for 320kbps mp3s, or USD112 for 16/44 flacs.

And how much does Andrea receive from all this???

For my money, Lucchesini's set is easily worth $112 for proper sound, but then I buy sets that are much more expensive than that, so YMMV.

I doubt Lucchesini has received a significant royalty from Stradivarius records for a good long time.

[Karl Henning]

(And yes, there are more LvB sonata recordings than one can shake a stick at.)

I think it possible I know someone who has seen the stick you've tried to shake at them.

[San Antone]

Usually an artist will receive an advance and the record label will recoup the expenses related to the recording through sales.  Only after all expenses are recouped would an artist share in any future revenue.  Record labels need to make money in order to survive, and reductions in staff is one place cost cutting will occur if profits are hurt by illegal downloading. 

[Mandryka]

I feel very excited about the future of recordings in the areas which interest me. It's never been easier to distribute, and never been easier to record, both in and out of the studio. My one (slight) anxiety is that the artisists themselves can hardly earn a living from performing. Andrea could use  all the dosh he can put his hands on  I expect. But the performers will find other ways, in universities, through teaching, or some other line like with Rubsam. The days of stars making big numbers are coming to an end, because no one is giving out contracts like they used to.

Are people interested in classical music? Do they find it speaks to them? Well opera always seems to do OK in Covent Garden and Glyndebourne. The rich at their leisure. And interestingly in Paris, someone as obscure as Céline Frisch can sell out a major theatre on a Saturday afternoon, and a long festival of Bach on original instruments can sell out for every concert. And a exhibition devoted to a modernist can run for weeks and weeks (Boulez) 

And let's not forget one of the most remarkable musical business success stories of recent years, Leusink. There's a model to replicate there, a way of making money, which only works because people do indeed find early music relevant.

The

[merlin]

For my money, Lucchesini's set is easily worth $112 for proper sound, but then I buy sets that are much more expensive than that, so YMMV.

I would probably pay $112 for a hardcopy version, since that is only a bit more than what I paid for Annie Fischer's set.  But as I wrote, for a download this seems quite costly when factoring in downloading, burning to high-quality discs, storage options, and my time.

[jlaurson]

I would probably pay $112 for a hardcopy version, since that is only a bit more than what I paid for Annie Fischer's set.  But as I wrote, for a download this seems quite costly when factoring in burning to high-quality discs, storage options, and my time.

I know that small labels watch 3rd party prices on Amazon to determine whether a new (and expensive) edition of a box set is viable or not. We forget that most of these labels operate on shoestring budgets and can't just willy-nily re-issue something when it's oop. (Even medium labels like the soon-to-be-broken-up Haenssler Classics are suffering... which is a particular shame, since they've done so much good work in the last few years.)

[Florestan]

Okay, while Todd was taking his nap I did a bit of research, respecting strictly his rules:

Choose your own time period, your own countries, your own metrics.

Here is what I found.

Time period: 1615 - 2015

Countries: Worldwide.

Metrics:

1. Number of symphonic orchestras: 1615 - zero, 2015 - probably in the hundreds
2. Number of chamber orchestras: 1615 - probably in the tens, 2015 - probably in the hundreds, possibly more
3. Number of chamber ensembles: 1615 - probably in the tens, 2015 - probably in the hundreds, possibly more
4. Number of opera houses: 1615 - zero, 2015 - probably in the hundreds
5. Number of conservatories: 1615 - probably a dozen; 2015 - probably in the hundreds
6. Number of regular concert attendants: 1615 - probably in the hundreds, 2015 - probably in the hundreds of thousands, possibly more
7. Average age of concert attendants: 1615 - probably in the 20s-30s, 2015 - probably in the 40s-50s; adjusting for the longer life span of 2015, probably not much difference between the two years.
8. Number of recording labels: 1615 - zero, 2015 - probably in the tens
9. Number of people citing classical music as their favorite type of music: 1615 - probably in the hundreds, 2015 - probably in the hundreds of thousands, possibly more
10. Number of yearly or other time period classical music festivals and competitions: 1615 - probably zero, 2015 - probably in the hundreds.

Ergo, classical music metrics has known an average increase of roughly 1000% over the researched period. How one can conclude from this that classical music is increasingly irrelevant is beyond me.

[Todd]

Ergo, classical music metrics has known an average increase of roughly 1000% over the researched period. How one can conclude from this that classical music is increasingly irrelevant is beyond me.

Yawn.

[Florestan]

Yawn.

Your jaws must be already aching. Take care not to be left with a permanently open mouth.

[Holden]

Since I (most likely) was the person who initially raised this topic, but not under stealing music...

The original hardcopy version of Andrea Lucchesini's LvB sonatas was circa $40.  That version is definitely OOP, and used copies are going for USD230 at amazon.  The hardcopy (discs, holders, and box) is far removed from digital downloads, at whatever SQ.

Presto Classical has the entire set at USD80 for 320kbps mp3s, or USD112 for 16/44 flacs.  This is about as expensive as the used copies, since I would want to burn them to disc (costs for media, cases, and my time).

And if I simply want the op.106 Adagio sostenuto, I have to purchase the complete set. 

amazon usa offers roughly 256kbps downloads -- not good enough for me, especially since the entire set has been uploaded to youtube (perhaps only google can determine if this is "legal" or not), and can be downloaded from there.

Selling digital tracks, whether that be one-at-a-time (they are called "songs" ) or an entire album, is far from a costly venture (one-time cost of purchasing the digital rights, very inexpensive server storage, endless selling of zeros and ones, and no investment in hardcopy materials).

And how much does Andrea receive from all this???

Andrea probably gets nothing any more as he is not the holder of copyright.

Does Stradivarius still exist as a label?

[merlin]

http://www.stradivarius.it/index.php

[Madiel]

Is is stealing: you are stealing the artist's work and label's product, no differently than stashing a CD under your vest and walking out of a store.

Morally I agree with you. But the law doesn't. It is not theft because, unlike with a CD, you have not deprived anyone of something they had. You have not taken away someone's mp3 files.

What you have done is fail to provide them with money.

[Madiel]

And if I simply want the op.106 Adagio sostenuto, I have to purchase the complete set. 

I always find this particular kind of argument bewildering. If you were buying a physical CD, could you walk into a shop and say "I just want the CD that has op.106 Adagio sostenuto on it"?

No. You couldn't. You would have to purchase the complete set.

Much as it is quite useful sometimes to be able to buy a single track, people seem to have become so used to it that they forget how they used to have to buy an entire CD (or LP) even if they only wanted one thing on it.

[merlin]

I hear you.  However, it is not just buying a CD of the Hammerklavier, but in this case having to shell out $112 for the entire set of sonatas.  Somewhat different, imo.

N.B. Interestingly, the op. 106 Adagio sostenuto is not available singly at amazon either, only by purchasing the complete set (same as at Presto Classical).

Collusion?  Part of the digital licensing agreement?  Quien sabe...

But it is certainly available at youtube, free of charge. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

I always find this particular kind of argument bewildering. If you were buying a physical CD, could you walk into a shop and say "I just want the CD that has op.106 Adagio sostenuto on it"?

No. You couldn't. You would have to purchase the complete set.

Much as it is quite useful sometimes to be able to buy a single track, people seem to have become so used to it that they forget how they used to have to buy an entire CD (or LP) even if they only wanted one thing on it.

Not altogether. Back in the LP days, it was not unusual for operas to be issued in complete form and as highlights discs, based on what the company figured most users were likely to want. And I still remember the 45s that might contain one or two hit songs for those who didn't want to buy the whole album. Of course the choice was being made for you, but the principle is similar.

Today those who don't want to buy Lucchesini's Op. 49 1 and 2 but want his Op. 109 can download just the "songs" they want. Legally.

[merlin]

Today those who don't want to buy Lucchesini's Op. 49 1 and 2 but want his Op. 109 can download just the "songs" they want. Legally.

Op. 109, sure, but see my post just above.  So not every "song" can be purchased individually at Presto or amazon, and the Adagio sostenuto is not the only one (e.g. op. 111 second movement).

[(poco) Sforzando]

Op. 109, sure, but see my post just above.  So not every "song" can be purchased individually at Presto or amazon, and the Adagio sostenuto is not the only one (e.g. op. 111 second movement).

I know. They've made 100 tracks available for download, and for the longest songs you have to buy the whole album. Personally, I'll pass on the whole thing.

[merlin]

I know. They've made 100 tracks available for download, and for the longest songs you have to buy the whole album. Personally, I'll pass on the whole thing.

I agree completely.  And then "they" wonder why there are torrents and youtube postings.

[Wakefield]

Is is stealing: you are stealing the artist's work and label's product, no differently than stashing a CD under your vest and walking out of a store.

Practically, this is not so true, I think. If you steal a physical object, this object is subtracted from the use of its owner, who suffers a lost, a minus. He won't be able to obtain any benefit of that object. But that's not so true when we are talking about "digital objects" because if, for instance, I copy a disk or a program, this won't avoid their owner to obtain all the benefits of the "original" product copied. I mean, the inner economy of digital products is quite similar to the economy of the ideas in general, frequently expressed under this attractive aphorism: "If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas."

Copyrights have always been as a sort of monopoly; that's the reason because they have a term. A protection for creators during a reasonable term, as a form of balancing the general interest and the particular interest of the creators. But with digital technologies even the practical possibility of this protection has been put into question.