Sibelius Symphonies

[DavidRoss]

Listening to music is a subjective thing. I own every Sibelius symphony cycle available, so you have to excuse me when I say something negative about another cycle. I have heard them all. I have my favorites just like you, I'm sure, have yours.

I try not to take people's opinions too seriously and if we do agree on a recording or whatever then that is great, but there are differences between all of us and what we look for in the music.

 

Apparently we don't speak the same language.  Scarpia and I do.  Even though our opinions are often at odds, at least we understand one another.     And I agree with his point regarding the recordings in question: late Lenny's extreme interpretive liberties with Sibelius aren't for everyone.  Most folks here are well aware of his self-indulgence, the tendencies to stretch tempos to the breaking point (some think beyond!) and to wring every last drop of emotion out of a piece (or to milk every bit of potential sentimentality).  The symphony recordings in this set are prime examples of that, particularly the Second, which for some is all but unlistenable.  I used to actively dislike them since I much prefer my Sibelius crisp and cool and lean, the antithesis of late Lenny's Romantic wallowing, but I've come to value these records in spite of that.

What I really don't like are interpretations that pump up Sibelius like over-heated romantic movie music, making it grand, fiery, and passionate.  The worst of this sort in my experience is Ashkenazy and I have never warmed to his approach.  Maazel's WP cycle goes about as far in that direction as I'm comfortable with.  Segerstam is certainly grand and passionate, almost to a fault, but he's sumptuous rather than fiery, and though neither of his cycles is exactly my cup of tea, I admire and enjoy them very much--especially the beautifully played and recorded cycle on Ondine with the HPO.

Much more to my liking are Vänskä, Berglund, and Blomstedt--more cool than hot, more lean than well-upholstered, the details al dente rather than cooked to mushiness--the opposite of Ashkenazy.  And the great early Bernstein cycle with the NYPO strikes a darned near perfect balance between the extremes.  Is it better than the later near-cycle?  That's a matter of opinion (I happen to think it is  ).

[Mirror Image]

 

Apparently we don't speak the same language.  Scarpia and I do.  Even though our opinions are often at odds, at least we understand one another.     And I agree with his point regarding the recordings in question: late Lenny's extreme interpretive liberties with Sibelius aren't for everyone.  Most folks here are well aware of his self-indulgence, the tendencies to stretch tempos to the breaking point (some think beyond!) and to wring every last drop of emotion out of a piece (or to milk every bit of potential sentimentality).  The symphony recordings in this set are prime examples of that, particularly the Second, which for some is all but unlistenable.  I used to actively dislike them since I much prefer my Sibelius crisp and cool and lean, the antithesis of late Lenny's Romantic wallowing, but I've come to value these records in spite of that.

What I really don't like are interpretations that pump up Sibelius like over-heated romantic movie music, making it grand, fiery, and passionate.  The worst of this sort in my experience is Ashkenazy and I have never warmed to his approach.  Maazel's WP cycle goes about as far in that direction as I'm comfortable with.  Segerstam is certainly grand and passionate, almost to a fault, but he's sumptuous rather than fiery, and though neither of his cycles is exactly my cup of tea, I admire and enjoy them very much--especially the beautifully played and recorded cycle on Ondine with the HPO.

Much more to my liking are Vänskä, Berglund, and Blomstedt--more cool than hot, more lean than well-upholstered, the details al dente rather than cooked to mushiness--the opposite of Ashkenazy.  And the great early Bernstein cycle with the NYPO strikes a darned near perfect balance between the extremes.  Is it better than the later near-cycle?  That's a matter of opinion (I happen to think it is  ).

I completely understand where you're coming from with Sibelius. I think he can be interpreted a number of different ways however and I like different approaches. Interestingly enough Berglund and Vanska are two of my favorite Sibelius conductors. I still enjoy Ashkenazy's and Bernstein's early approach along with Segerstam. Blomstedt is decent, but a little too detached for my tastes. Yoel Levi was a good Sibelius conductor that doesn't get mentioned enough. Too bad he never made a complete cycle.

I just feel however that Bernstein couldn't top his earlier recordings. I do like many of his later recordings, but his later Sibelius does little for me and I seldom return to those readings.

[Scarpia]

The symphony recordings in this set are prime examples of that, particularly the Second, which for some is all but unlistenable.  I used to actively dislike them since I much prefer my Sibelius crisp and cool and lean, the antithesis of late Lenny's Romantic wallowing, but I've come to value these records in spite of that.

That was my first recording of Sibelius 2.  I thought Sibelius had become unhinged during that second movement, now I know it was Lenny and some bad weed.   Actually, I'm sorry I sold that disc, it was so bizarre, and now I see that the 3cd set of Lenny Sibelius is less than $12.  I think I gotta have it.

[DavidRoss]

That was my first recording of Sibelius 2.  I thought Sibelius had become unhinged during that second movement, now I know it was Lenny and some bad weed.   Actually, I'm sorry I sold that disc, it was so bizarre, and now I see that the 3cd set of Lenny Sibelius is less than $12.  I think I gotta have it.

Gotta have?  Well, Scarps, don't say you weren't warned--least of all by your own previous experience! Note that the filler on the set--especially the Enigma Variations with the BBC but the Britten as well--is very good and probably worth the <$12 price all by itself!

I wonder whether age has something to do with appreciating late Lenny's indulgences?  I know that even a few years ago I nearly despised his later Mahler and Sibelius recordings, thinking he'd overshot "sensitive" and landed in "sappy."  But now that I'm approaching the geriatric set myself, I find more to savor in his approach.  Perhaps life's lessons in patience are finally bearing fruit? 

Note to curiously interventionist Mod: although moving these recent posts from the original thread to this one seems both strange and unnecessary, I'm grateful that it brought my attention to Greta's old post with links to some of the Sibelius threads on the old forum http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,250.msg53464.html#msg53464 .

But you left behind this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg440731.html#msg440731
and this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg440743.html#msg440743
and this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg440907.html#msg440907
and this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg440908.html#msg440908
and this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg440920.html#msg440920
and this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg440926.html#msg440926
and this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg441042.html#msg441042
and this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg441043.html#msg441043

plus this entirely gratuitous attempted insult that seems to have arisen from the Sibelius symphony recordings discussion: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg440997.html#msg440997

[karlhenning]

Gotta have?  Well, Scarps, don't say you weren't warned--least of all by your own previous experience! Note that the filler on the set--especially the Enigma Variations with the BBC but the Britten as well--is very good and probably worth the <$12 price all by itself!

I wonder whether age has something to do with appreciating late Lenny's indulgences?  I know that even a few years ago I nearly despised his later Mahler and Sibelius recordings, thinking he'd overshot "sensitive" and landed in "sappy."  But now that I'm approaching the geriatric set myself, I find more to savor in his approach.  Perhaps life's lessons in patience are finally bearing fruit? 

Well, I am curious (at that price point, especially) to revisit Lenny and the Wiener Philharmoniker in these.

[DavidRoss]

Well, I am curious (at that price point, especially) to revisit Lenny and the Wiener Philharmoniker in these.

Indeed!  At that price, I might even revisit Barbirolli! (Perhaps worth revisiting, now that I've made peace with the late Lenny's even greater excesses along similar lines...?)

[karlhenning]

Indeed!  At that price, I might even revisit Barbirolli! (Perhaps worth revisiting, now that I've made peace with the late Lenny's even greater excesses along similar lines...?)

Well, and then after we were discussing Rattle (you did the lion's share of the talking), I found a like-new copy of Rattle/CBSO for about the same as I'd pulled the trigger on Lenny/Vienna+ for.

And I was not expecting to expand my Sibelius library to this degree in 2010 ; )

[Scarpia]

Indeed!  At that price, I might even revisit Barbirolli! (Perhaps worth revisiting, now that I've made peace with the late Lenny's even greater excesses along similar lines...?)

I'm  an enormous admirer of Barbirolli, but my reaction to that Sibelius set was that it mostly lacked the Barbirolli magic.  It includes a wonderful disc of non-symphonic orchestral music (disc 1, Karelia Suite, Pojhola's Daughter, etc) but the symphonies didn't grab me the way Barbirolli recordings often do.  Barbirolli can take a slow tempo and fill that extra time with extra interpretive details, but in this case I didn't hear it.  Maybe I need to try again (in deference to Sir John, I didn't sell that one).

[DavidRoss]

Well, and then after we were discussing Rattle (you did the lion's share of the talking), I found a like-new copy of Rattle/CBSO for about the same as I'd pulled the trigger on Lenny/Vienna+ for.

And I was not expecting to expand my Sibelius library to this degree in 2010 ; )

Ahem...well, yes, I do tend either to be verbose or so terse as to appear churlish (at least to those who need everything spelled out  ).

I dare not speculate about your response to Bernstein's excessively Romantic, indulgent approach to the master of modernist concision, but I expect you will be pleasantly surprised by Rattle's CBSO Sibelius.  I've made no direct comparisons with Berglund's first cycle when he was directing the Bournemouth Symphony, but Rattle's approach seems similar enough to raise suspicions that he cribbed quite a bit from Paavo--and there's certainly nothing wrong with that!

[DavidRoss]

I'm  an enormous admirer of Barbirolli, but my reaction to that Sibelius set was that it mostly lacked the Barbirolli magic.  It includes a wonderful disc of non-symphonic orchestral music (disc 1, Karelia Suite, Pojhola's Daughter, etc) but the symphonies didn't grab me the way Barbirolli recordings often do.  Barbirolli can take a slow tempo and fill that extra time with extra interpretive details, but in this case I didn't hear it.  Maybe I need to try again (in deference to Sir John, I didn't sell that one).

Like you I admire Barbirolli quite a bit, especially in English music and Mahler, but his Sibelius never floated my boat--as is usually the case with those whose approach to Sibelius is more Romantic than Modernist.  I think I probably have a couple of Sir John's Sibelius recordings about someplace...perhaps I'll try them as well, particularly as I seem rather receptive to Sibelius again these days!

[karlhenning]

. . . I dare not speculate about your response to Bernstein's excessively Romantic, indulgent approach to the master of modernist concision . . . .

Curiously, this will be a revisitation . . . the Fifth and Seventh from this cycle was the first Sibelius I ever bought on compact disc, found it used in a shop in Rochester long ago.  At the time, it wasn't quite to my taste (though more nearly so than the other Sibelius CD I bought from that used music shop: HvK in the Fourth & Sixth).

I needed to overcome that mild negativity in order to have ears for your recommendation, years since, of the Lenny/NYPhil cycle! : )

[DarkAngel]

Barbirolli/EMI set with Halle Orch not one of the very best Sibelius sets available for me.........

but the Barbirolli/RPO 2nd symphony is a different story, the "fire and ice" performance......one of the very best I have heard, I love it.  Available on Chesky or Testament releases:

 

MI......have you heard this?

[DavidRoss]

Barbirolli/EMI set with Halle Orch not one of the very best Sibelius sets available for me.........

but the Barbirolli/RPO 2nd symphony is a different story, the "fire and ice" performance......one of the very best I have heard, I love it.  Available on Chesky or Testament releases:

A common recommendation and one I acquired due to its popularity.  And I'm not surprised when people for whom the 2nd is their fave like it.  I don't like it and the 2nd is my least favorite of the seven (though stripped of the sappy sentimentality, ala Blomstedt, it's more apparently proto-Sibelian than the lushly romantic readings make it seem).

Hmmm...having just come from one of those threads debating the merits of HIPness, I see a relationship between (1a) those who want Sibelius to be a swashbuckling romantic and (1b) those who see him as an early modernist following his own inner vision and not the trendy mainstream...and (2a) those who love gushy, Romantic Big Band Bach and Mozart and (2b) those who think HIP period instrument performances sound like screeching cats racing against a sewing machine.  I wonder if there's any crossover between these two camps or if all in camp 1a also belong in camp 2a, and all in camp 1b also belong in camp 2b.

I favor the b-side for both 1 & 2, as if that weren't apparent. 

[DarkAngel]

A common recommendation and one I acquired due to its popularity.  And I'm not surprised when people for whom the 2nd is their fave like it.  I don't like it and the 2nd is my least favorite of the seven (though stripped of the sappy sentimentality, ala Blomstedt, it's more apparently proto-Sibelian than the lushly romantic readings make it seem).

Hmmm...having just come from one of those threads debating the merits of HIPness, I see a relationship between (1a) those who want Sibelius to be a swashbuckling romantic and (1b) those who see him as an early modernist following his own inner vision and not the trendy mainstream...and (2a) those who love gushy, Romantic Big Band Bach and Mozart and (2b) those who think HIP period instrument performances sound like screeching cats racing against a sewing machine.  I wonder if there's any crossover between these two camps or if all in camp 1a also belong in camp 2a, and all in camp 1b also belong in camp 2b.

I favor the b-side for both 1 & 2, as if that weren't apparent. 

Very interesting for me is Sibelius symphony cycle requires conductor to handle the evolution from the sweeping romantic style of 1,2 then the transitional 3,4 then the more bleak modernist 5,6,7

So you get to follow Sibelius musical discovery/thinking as his style evolved over time......like a diary

[Que]

Note to curiously interventionist Mod: although moving these recent posts from the original thread to this one seems both strange and unnecessary, I'm grateful that it brought my attention to Greta's old post with links to some of the Sibelius threads on the old forum.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,250.msg53464.html#msg53464

But you left behind this:

Well, you are in a good mood, aren't you?

Indeed, I seemed to have missed some - at least the ones I intended to move. Happy to oblige, Mr. Ross.

Q

[Coopmv]

Barbirolli/EMI set with Halle Orch not one of the very best Sibelius sets available for me.........

but the Barbirolli/RPO 2nd symphony is a different story, the "fire and ice" performance......one of the very best I have heard, I love it.  Available on Chesky or Testament releases:

 

MI......have you heard this?

DA,  Chesky CD's generally have outstanding sound.  How is that Sibelius 2nd?

[DarkAngel]

DA,  Chesky CD's generally have outstanding sound.  How is that Sibelius 2nd?

Chesky is almost always great sound.......very dependable quality
Barbirolli/RPO is a one of my very favorite Sibelius 2nd performances, tremendously powerful sweeping romantic themes like a huge tidal wave, very impressive in its dramatic energetic impact, known as the "fire and ice" performance by Barbirolli

Will not appeal to people who like relaxed smooth Sibelius 2nd (Bernstein/DG for example)

[Coopmv]

Chesky is almost always great sound.......very dependable quality
Barbirolli/RPO is a one of my very favorite Sibelius 2nd performances, tremendously powerful sweeping romantic themes like a huge tidal wave, very impressive in its dramatic energetic impact, known as the "fire and ice" performance by Barbirolli

Will not appeal to people who like relaxed smooth Sibelius 2nd (Bernstein/DG for example)

I have the Bernstein/DG set but I listened to the set such a long time ago ...

[Mirror Image]

Barbirolli/EMI set with Halle Orch not one of the very best Sibelius sets available for me.........

but the Barbirolli/RPO 2nd symphony is a different story, the "fire and ice" performance......one of the very best I have heard, I love it.  Available on Chesky or Testament releases:

 

MI......have you heard this?

I do not own those two recordings. I would anxious to hear them at some point.

[DarkAngel]

Barbirolli/EMI set with Halle Orch not one of the very best Sibelius sets available for me.........

but the Barbirolli/RPO 2nd symphony is a different story, the "fire and ice" performance......one of the very best I have heard, I love it.  Available on Chesky or Testament releases:

 

MI......have you heard this?

Found a review of Testament CD on music web.............calls the Sibelius 2nd definitive

I wouldn't go quite that far but it is a great performance

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/May08/Sibelius_SBT1418.htm