Sibelius Symphonies

[M forever]

I have.

[Greta]

Kullervo - Davis/LSO

From the set or the LSO Live one? This is the current Sibelius work I have a crush on, I'm just now appreciating what a truly significant work of his it is. Ravishing stuff. Actually I adore his early period I've discovered, as the Lemminkainen Legends and En Saga belong to it too. Karelia I like too.

It's especially ironic that the works I love so much of his are ones he suppressed and didn't even want published, my two favorite Legends and Kullervo, which contain passages of such stunning and keening beauty they almost take your breath away. What did he not like about these works? He's a fascinating character that I would love to read more about.

Kullervo, besides Davis I've heard Salonen and Saraste, it's hard to say which I like the best so far. Davis (LSO set) is sumptuously recorded, darkly passionate and takes time to smell the roses more, which is great. He digs into the score and brings out a lot of detail. The LSO sounds gorgeous there. But I like Saraste's Kullervo a lot. He and the Finns have an austere elegance that works very well in this grim windswept tale. Fantastic playing.

Salonen and L.A. are full of energy and warmth and perform the music with commitment. Though the sound is a tad distant, and this recording somehow doesn't click with me in a deeper way. He is far better in this work in more recent years with the Swedish RSO (TV and radio broadcast), they are more intense and stylish performances with finely crafted phrases and an immediacy I feel lacking in the L.A. recording. The Swedish RSO does very well in Sibelius stylistically. They capture better the stark, desolate nature of his writing, his sense of a standing amidst a blizzard. Their lean yet focused winds are especially nice.

Someone had said before, Sibelius is all "cool fire", exactly, he simmers below the surface, even at his most heady moments, there is a certain restraint and measured quality there. His writing has a purity, a wonderfully condensed nature, it's direct and honest. A bit like a intense, bewitching gaze from across the room.    

I want to hear very much Berglund I and Vanska in Kullervo. Also curious about the new Spano/Atlanta, I appreciate the fact their chorus spent months learning the Finnish for it. It has gotten some great reviews.

[Drasko]

Has anybody here heard the below Sibelius recordings by Mravinsky and care to comment on them?
 

I have that one and I like it but the price is touch steep for 26 minutes of music and the sound isn't exactly perfect. So you'd better judge by yourself, I've uploaded the first movement (256 Kbps mp3):

http://rapidshare.com/files/40209474/Track_No01.mp3.html

and for anybody else interested in test drive

[Mark G. Simon]

From the set or the LSO Live one? This is the current Sibelius work I have a crush on, I'm just now appreciating what a truly significant work of his it is. Ravishing stuff. Actually I adore his early period I've discovered, as the Lemminkainen Legends and En Saga belong to it too. Karelia I like too.

It's especially ironic that the works I love so much of his are ones he suppressed and didn't even want published, my two favorite Legends and Kullervo, which contain passages of such stunning and keening beauty they almost take your breath away. What did he not like about these works? He's a fascinating character that I would love to read more about.

I read that when the Lemminkainen Legends were first performed in the 1890s, the conductor had some harsh criticisms for "L and the Maidens of Saari" and "L in Tuonela". For that reason Sibelius held them back. Those two movements were not performed again until the 1930s, and this must have prompted Sibelius to do something about them, because he revised them in 1939, which means we're damned lucky to have them at all because he might have decided to use them as kindling for the 8th symphony.

He probably figured that there were copies of these movements in other people's hands and therefore it would be of no use to burn his copies (same with Kullervo). It would stand to reason, then, that there are copies of the earlier versions of the Lemminkainen movements in existence and a comparison between the earlier and later versions would give us an idea of what he was up to, compositionally, in 1939. Even though these are early works, there is some late Sibelius in them also. 

[M forever]

I have that one and I like it but the price is touch steep for 26 minutes of music and the sound isn't exactly perfect. So you'd better judge by yourself, I've uploaded the first movement (256 Kbps mp3):

http://rapidshare.com/files/40209474/Track_No01.mp3.html

and for anybody else interested in test drive

Great, thanks a lot!  had wanted to hear that for a long time but so far never got around to ordering it from Japan.

[Sergeant Rock]

From the set or the LSO Live one?

The set. I haven't heard the LSO Live yet. Reviews say it's a more urgent, dramatic reading. I don't know...I love the very broad tempos in the set. For me the live recording might not be an improvement. I also own Vänskä, Berglund II and Järvi père. We heard Järvi fils conduct Kullervo with Hynninen last year in Frankfurt. His interpretation was considerably different than his father's. It was slow, expansive like Davis I. Quite overwhelming. Mrs. Rock will tell you it was the best concert she ever heard. Sibelius isn't popular in Germany and there were quite a few empty seats in the Alte Oper. We had the first two rows on the right side all to ourselves. Once the music began the audience disappeared for us. It was almost like our own private concert.

...besides Davis I've heard Salonen and Saraste, it's hard to say which I like the best so far. Davis (LSO set) is sumptuously recorded, darkly passionate and takes time to smell the roses more, which is great. He digs into the score and brings out a lot of detail. The LSO sounds gorgeous there. But I like Saraste's Kullervo a lot. He and the Finns have an austere elegance that works very well in this grim windswept tale. Fantastic playing.

I'm interested in Saraste's Kullervo. It's on my wishlist along with Paavo Järvi's. Nice to see a recommendation. Saraste's Sibelius tends to get overlooked here.

Sarge

[M forever]

We heard Järvi fils conduct Kullervo with Hynninen last year in Frankfurt. His interpretation was considerably different than his father's.

Maybe Paavo even actually studied the score. 

I'm interested in Saraste's Kullervo. It's on my wishlist along with Paavo Järvi's. Nice to see a recommendation. Saraste's Sibelius tends to get overlooked here.

I once had a set of the symphonies with Saraste and the Finnish RSO recorded live in St.Petersburg. It did not leave an impression on me. I haven't listened to them in many years. I don't even know what happened to the CDs. Somehow, I don't seem to have them anymore. 

Spano's recording looks interesting, too. I have his recording of Schéhérazade and an album of modern American music. Both are very good, very well prepared. I think one of the "bigger" US orchestras which don't really know who their next principal conductor is supposed to be should stop obsessing about which spectacular "world star" they should try to hire next and just get him.

[Sergeant Rock]

To go along with my Segerstam cycle, I am also considering the Maazel/Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra.....has anyone else enjoyed any from this cycle?

I own 4 and 5, and I quite like them. Tempos are daringly slow...which I love. However, I think you should get Maazel/Vienna first. It would give you a more distinct contrast to the Segerstam you already own. Maazel's Fourth, all by itself, makes the set worth owning. This is the "coldest" Fourth I've ever heard. Be sure to put on a scarf and mittens before playing it. Seriously, it creates a bleak, desolate, chilling atmosphere like no other I've heard. And the recording is outstanding. The only thing I wish Decca had done is put the cycle on four discs instead of three. That way they could have included Maazel's incomparable Tapiola too. His Tapiola did show up on a budget disc once, coupled with other short works of Sibelius. Worth seeking out.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Maybe Paavo even actually studied the score. 

Or maybe he just had a lot more time than his papa and could afford the slower pace. The elder Järvi's inhuman recording schedule never gave him much time to linger on any one piece.

Sarge

[M forever]

The only thing I wish Decca had done is put the cycle on four discs instead of three. That way they could have included Maazel's incomparable Tapiola too. His Tapiola did show up on a budget disc once, coupled with other short works of Sibelius. Worth seeking out.

Or on the "Legendary Performances" re-release of the 4th and 7th symphony, that also has Tapiola on it. A little annoying because you have to duplicate those two symphonies, but then the recordings are allegedly remastered. So I bough that CD. But I never got around to A-B comparing it to the versions in the box.

It is not entirely clear to me which items on that other compilation are with WP/Maazel and which are with PO/Kord.

Maazel's PSO cycle is totally different, those who expect something similar, but in more modern sound, to the earlier cycle will be very disappointed. But not because the later recordings aren't good. They are just totally different. Seen for themselves, they have some great merits. Maazel gets a very slender, cleanly outlined and crisp, somewhat chilly and crystalline sound from the PSO - not totally unlike what we hear from Blomstedt and the SFS. I think Maazel's remake of the 6th is outstanding, the PSO delivers some highly refined string playing there and the performance is very well structured.

[Sergeant Rock]

It is not entirely clear to me which items on that other compilation are with WP/Maazel and which are with PO/Kord.

The way I read it, the only piece conducted by Maazel is Tapiola. Finlandia, Karelia, Valse triste, the Swan seem to be done by Kord. I'm not sure I've ever listened to anything but the Tapiola on this disc.

Sarge

[M forever]

I seem to remember there is at least a Karelia suite and a Swan of Tapiola with Maazel/WP, but I am not entirely sure. I think I have at least one recording of the Swan with the WP, and I think it is from about that time. Or was that with Stein? Or weren't Stein's Sibelius tone poems with the OSR? I think it's high time for me to get my collection organized... We had a discussion in RMCR about that a while ago, I searched for it but couldn't find it.

[Sergeant Rock]

I seem to remember there is at least a Karelia suite and a Swan of Tapiola with Maazel/WP, but I am not entirely sure. I think I have at least one recording of the Swan with the WP, and I think it is from about that time. Or was that with Stein? Or weren't Stein's Sibelius tone poems with the OSR? I think it's high time for me to get my collection organized... We had a discussion in RMCR about that a while ago, I searched for it but couldn't find it.

Your're right. There is a Maazel/WP Karelia. It was originally the filler on the Maazel/WP LP of the First Symphony. But the original Kord LP also includes a Karelia. I still have that Maazel record. I should listen to it and see if it's the same recording as the CD.

Yeah, Stein's disc of tone poems is with the Suisse Romande. (Finlandia, Swan, Night-Ride, Pohjola, En Saga). It's long been a favorite of mine. I think I have the LP too. (My CD collection is well-organized but my LPs are a mess.)

Sarge

[M forever]

I just remembered, the Viennese Swan I have is in fact with Sargent conducting, not Maazel. It is on an EMI 2fer with tone poems and songs.

[vandermolen]

My favourite set:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B000026ADH/ref=sr_1_1/203-8357764-4422343?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183454875&sr=1-1

[Hector]

Don't a lot of people regard the Helsinki cycle as superior to the DNRSO cycle? I haven't heard the Helsinki cycle but the DNRSO cycle can be criticized for being a bit on the overblown and overripe side. Someone who likes their Sibelius with a little less fat would probably not take to the DNRSO cycle very well.

I've no idea as I haven't heard the 'DNRSO' cycle whatever that is.

All I know is that Segerstam in Helsinki loses it on more than one occasion. Just put on any of the favoured cycles of the past (what?) fifty years and it becomes more than apparent. Compare him with Ehrling. No contest!

It is clear that some like their Sibelius to sound like somebody else. Fine, doesn't make it any good or Sibelian!

[Greta]

Spano's recording looks interesting, too. I have his recording of Schéhérazade and an album of modern American music. Both are very good, very well prepared. I think one of the "bigger" US orchestras which don't really know who their next principal conductor is supposed to be should stop obsessing about which spectacular "world star" they should try to hire next and just get him.

Definitely on my "must-get" list. I have a couple his of contemporary and 20c. recordings with Atlanta, and that orchestra is a long favorite of mine. Spano conducted a cracking Bernstein Symphonic Dances down this way and a fun Gandolfi piece. A friend told me he wished we had him LOL

"World star", yeah....my two picks for LA were him or David Robertson. I don't care how "flashy" and innately talented Dudamel is, they have way more experience and either would've seemed very "right" there with their support of contemporary music and charisma. Just my 2 cents. (Back to the Sibelius)

[MishaK]

Spano's recording looks interesting, too. I have his recording of Schéhérazade and an album of modern American music. Both are very good, very well prepared. I think one of the "bigger" US orchestras which don't really know who their next principal conductor is supposed to be should stop obsessing about which spectacular "world star" they should try to hire next and just get him.

On that I actually agree with you. Having heard Spano live and having seen what he did with the Brooklyn Phil, I have no doubt he would make an excellent choice. There was an extended article in the New Yorker on the art of conducting, which included some very insightful commentary from Spano. Thanks for reminding me. I meant to pick up a copy of his Scheherazade.

[Florestan]

Here's an excellent website about Sibelius and his music, with in-depth and insightful analysis of the symphonies and other works.

[Greta]

I'm interested in Saraste's Kullervo. It's on my wishlist along with Paavo Järvi's. Nice to see a recommendation. Saraste's Sibelius tends to get overlooked here.

Man, I am completely stuck on Kullervo, I simply love this work. I did a lot of comparative listening this weekend and have the first chorus memorized, hence "Kul-ler-vo, ka-ler-von poiii-ka" keeps running through my head!

Saraste gets a top recommendation from me. This is certainly a great recording. Sarge, you know he's fast, right? 

It's bracing, concentrated, agile Sibelius, actually he's the quickest one I have, but he is able to pull off these quick tempi with a highly poised, focused reading and a technically superb orchestra. He and the orchestra produce a pure, lean sound that is most attractive, their fine intonation adds to this. Impressive winds. Finnish RSO actually sounds awesome here. TBH, this is the first of Saraste's work I've ever heard and was mightily impressed. Very musical, and nuanced with some interesting things going on.

He would be an excellent contrast to Davis, and actually Salonen too. Saraste sees Kullervo in a different way from those two readings, from the outset you feel the softly swirling snow and barrenness ahead. Davis sees Kullervo as a lusty, rugged journeyman, Salonen sees the dashing star of a colorful fairytale (at least in the Sony recording), while Saraste sees a haunted, chiseled figure with blazing eyes. The beauty in his Kullervo is the crystalline, sparkling kind, in the way that snow is beautiful. His fleet, uniform tempi and tight rein on the orchestra add to the relentless nature of Kullervo's journey.

The mammoth 3rd mvmt. features wonderful singing all around. The Polytech Choir delivers controlled, never forced singing with lovely dynamic shading, and are nicely hushed and otherworldly in the Gregorian-chantlike sections. Jorma Hynninen sounds great here, very lonely and pained but never over the top. And Monica Groop, who has a darkly colored tone that also works very well here. All well recorded, in a natural and vivid sound.

I really prefer Finnish singers for the choir in Kullervo, this beautiful language has some peculiar accents, and a certain softness of articulation on unaccented syllables that is extremely hard for English speakers to nail. (Hopefully the Atlanta recording will prove me wrong if I get it.) But on words like, "poika" and especially "sinisukka", they are sharply declamated in the Davis recording, whereas in the others, the latter syllables are softer, and the 2nd syllable "ni" in "sinisukka" is almost just an inflection.

Anyway, I love the Saraste, though I wouldn't be without the Davis and Salonen, to represent alternative views. I am curious about the Vanska, I see it mentioned a lot. That sounded like a super performance live Sarge, I hope I have the chance to see this one day.

I'm in the process of uploading the the Salonen/SRSO recordings I mentioned, they are slower than the CD and rather different. The video is very good quality and a lyrical, somewhat expansive reading in the idea of Davis. Nice to a see a video performance of this piece.