Started by Brian, September 16, 2015, 06:54:58 PM
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Quote from: SimonNZ on March 12, 2022, 01:09:23 PMThey should have had a stated cutoff date of 1965-ish for the documentary which is really where they give up, offering only the last half of the last episode for a confusingly selective list of shout-outs to complete the story.And no mention of the ECM label or any of their artists - who I would have thought were carrying the torch in the later 20th century.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 06:14:56 AMTo the bolded text, I disagree. I didn't hear any variety in the opinions expressed. All I heard was the Marsalis/Crouch clan speak of their own personal biases. A mere nod to Bill Evans doesn't actually give accord to his accomplishments. I don't recall Dave Brubeck being mentioned or talked about to any great length and, again, this shows yet another oversight to this deeply flawed documentary series. In fact, I don't think the whole West Coast scene got much attention in general. And we won't even talk about the oversight of the European jazz musicians. Anyway, this series may be important to you, but to me it hardly measures up to anything of remote substance. I agree with what Claude Debussy said about the tradition in music "I love music passionately. And because I love it, I try to free it from barren traditions that stifle it." The same ideology applies to jazz. This music isn't for the museum as depicted in the Ken Burns' series. It's a living, breathing musical organism that will never find its' footing, because of its inherent adaptability to change with the times. This is something that the Marsalis/Burns clan have continued to fail to acknowledge.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 06:43:23 AMOf course you are entitled to your opinion but the Jazz tradition is over 100 years old and you are complaining about the treatment of (at the time the film was made) about the most recent 20 years. You also seem to want more coverage of white musicians, but the film covered the early white groups Original Dixieland Jazz Orchestra, New Orleans Rhythm Kings, and as I said earlier Bix Beiderbecke, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, and many of the white big bands. Jazz accepts any musician no matter what is their race. The only requirement is that they "can play," i.e. swing, have an individual sound, and can play the Blues. (Btw, the book has more coverage of all of what you complain about, an entire chapter on white musicians, and more about West Coast jazz.)The film was meant to tell the story of Jazz, the main personalities and styles - not to be a comprehensive exhaustive account of every musician or regional sound that has ever been. We essentially disagree about what the Jazz tradition encompasses and in fact even means. Jazz is not simply any improvised music. Bach improvised, Beethoven improvised, Indian Classical musicians improvise, Bluegrass musicians improvise, and yes European musicians on ECM improvise - but without the stylistic specifics along with improvisation - swing and Blues - the music is not part of the Jazz tradition.I have a lot of respect for what Wynton Marsalis has devoted his career to doing: keeping the Jazz tradition alive in his playing as well as teaching future generations of young musicians about Jazz. As part of his position as Director of Jazz at Lincoln Center he has created at least 20 educational programs, an entire academy of Jazz. Much of his time is spent teaching, something you never see unless you go looking for it.And since he matured as a performer and composer his bands have included some of the best musicians who became leaders of their own bands creating contemporary Jazz in the tradition.Those styles of European improvising musicians offer some fantastic music. But it just isn't within the Jazz tradition - and there's nothing wrong with that. After all "Jazz" is a label two of the most important artists rejected, both Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong preferred to say they played "my/our music" and distanced themselves from the term Jazz.The Jazz tradition is important not the label. But since we use labels as shorthand, they need to have specificity or they become meaningless.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 06:55:34 AMBut you are allowing tradition to dictate how you ultimately feel about the genre's history instead of acknowledging that the very essence of jazz is change.As for Marsalis, I don't really give a flying f*** what he's done or has achieved. To me, he's nothing more than a museum showpiece and has, in essence, become a parody of jazz instead of what the genre actually represents.Anyway, we'll agree to disagree and just leave it there.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 12, 2022, 03:29:14 PMI can't really agree. I've seen it three times now and each time it feels in that last segment that they are obliged to follow Wynton's very outspoken and unbending verdicts about what is and is not Jazz, and that ECM artists are in his estimation Not Jazz. And by 2001 when it was screened, or whenever the project was started, it should have been clear that many were, are and will continue to be important.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 07:46:16 AMIt's important to remember that jazz is only jazz when Marsalis says it is, but if you disagree, then you're the one who is wrong. Oh well, I'll continue to listen to my Kenny Wheeler or Tomasz Stańko albums and enjoy them for bringing a newfound elegance to the genre.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 08:20:10 AMKenny Wheeler and Tomasz Stanko created some fantastic music, and I enjoy it too. It doesn't become any better by calling it Jazz and it isn't hurt by saying it isn't Jazz (although some of what Kenny Wheeler has done does fall within the Jazz tradition). Just like when Clarence Clemons plays solo in a Bruce Springsteen song it is not Jazz, although it is also very good music.ECM is a label that includes a lot of music, even Classical music. Some of it is Jazz, like Keith Jarrett's Standards Quartet, or Mal Waldron's recordings. But much of it is a different style other than Jazz.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 13, 2022, 12:56:53 PMTo be fair to Marsalis: his own discography is far more interesting and varied than his own straightjacketing pronouncements would suggest.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 12:08:33 PMFor me, jazz is more of a process than something that can fit comfortably into a box.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 03:17:31 PMJazz is a style of playing. Any song can be played in a Jazz style, and the specific aspects of the style is what makes it sound like Jazz.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 07:37:41 PMI guess you have a difficult time reading what I wrote, so I'll repeat it again:Take note of the bolded text.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 07:43:12 PMI don't have difficulty reading what you wrote; I just don't think it is as important as recognizing the history of Jazz and what the major artists did. If you wish to live in a solipsistic world where you create your own echo chamber and ignore the objective reality, that is your choice. It is not something I care to indulge.
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