Blind comparison: Bach's Violin Sonatas and Partitas

[aukhawk]

Would it upset the carefully balanced apple cart if I joined in and made it a baker's dozen?  In any case, I'd be happy to participate, if there's still room.  (Or I could make up a group of one. )

You're in.  We need all the help we can get! 

Anyone else joining - please be sure to read the first message in this thread, which explains how it is to work.

I would like to join, but...

Welcome.  Please don't worry about how long - as long as the thread stays alive (ie on the top page) it will obviously take a while to get this first round done.

Okay, I have listened to A1 and A2: I found both dreadful, with A2 awarded a special prize for bizarre rubato.  A1 to my ears was flaccid.
A3 was much better in comparison!  Energetic, dramatic, and even enigmatic at times!   0:)

A1 - oh dear.       A2 - oh dear oh dear      A3 - yesss! 
All three of those are firm GMG favourites, from the Bach S&P thread.  This is what the blind comparisons are all about!! 
Please keep it coming, folks.

[aukhawk]

Here is the opening of the 1st Sonata, from an early manuscript:


Well I know very little about musical notation, and a whole lot less than that about violin playing - but it seems to me that the performer is faced with something of a conundrum.
The most obvious approach might be to play two double-stops in very rapid succession.  Since the top note must be held, then obviously the two lower notes must be played first - and a later printed edition of the score seems to suggest this approach:


Very few of the violinists in the blind comparison actually go down this route - the most notable ones are A5 and D2 and, to a lesser degree, B5.
At the other extreme would be performers who arpeggiate all four notes evenly and without haste - the effect of this is rather akin to an Indian musician picking out the notes of his raga for the audience, before starting on his improvisation.  It can be a very calming and lovely moment.  The most notable exponent of this is A6.

However the most common approach is to arpeggiate unevenly, playing some notes faster than others, with or without overlapping them.  The variations are endless but often the first three notes become little more than an ornamentation before the held high G, while a few avoid this by putting it all into the first low G, which seems hard to justify from the notation but it can sound very musical.

Fascinating - and that's just the start!

[Cato]

Okay, I have listened to A4, A5, and A6.

A4 tries to make the opening mysterious, but instead it comes across as languid, somewhat similar to A1.  The rest of the sonata is there, but not much comes through.

A6 succeeds where A4 fails: the opening is very well played with a great sense of mystery of enigma about it, and I had great hopes that the second part would equal the intensity of the opening.  Unfortunately, things were taken too slowly, and the music at times seems to fall apart as a result, needing the gravity of some speed to hold together.

A5 does well with both parts: the opening has drama rather than mystery, and the last section is never in danger of collapsing from lack of centrifugal force. 

So my rankings right now:

A3   
A5
A6
A4
A1
A2

[Pim]

If it's not too late yet, I'd be happy to join!

[Cato]

So, the Menuet and Gigue:

A1: The opening sounds too delicate, timid, even precious.  The middle part is similar, but things do improve at the end.

A2: The strangeness continues: overuse of rubato again being the main problem in the opening sections, and just a clumsy sound in general for the final part, as if the performer were holding a cello under his chin. 

[aukhawk]

Thanks Cato, for your feedback and very interesting comments.

Not too late Pim, I've sent you some links in a PM.  This is obviously going to be a slow process, especially with Christmas and New Year coming up, so I'm hoping we can gain a bit more momentum in January.

In the mean time, keep 'em coming folks!

[Cato]

So, the Menuet and Gigue:

A1: The opening sounds too delicate, timid, even precious.  The middle part is similar, but things do improve at the end.

A2: The strangeness continues: overuse of rubato again being the main problem in the opening sections, and just a clumsy sound in general for the final part, as if the performer were holding a cello under his chin.

A3: The Menuet is played like it actually is a menuet, and the Gigue comes across as a very merry Gigue!  Joy is present throughout the performance!

A4: The Gigue outshines the opening, which I found lackluster.  In contrast, in the Gigue the performer almost makes it sound like a cadenza in a concerto.

A5: A slow pace for the opening, deliberate, and uninteresting, as if the performer were practicing scales.  Things improve a little in the middle, but not much.  The Gigue is played competently enough, but again things sound rather careful, rather than carefree.

A6: This performance gives the Menuet a bigger sound, and at times a bit of humor.  The Gigue has a slow-down-speed-up aspect which gives it a roller-coaster feel. 

So, for this section, the rankings are:

A3
A6
A4
A5
A1
A2

[aukhawk]

Thanks.  I'm inclined to give more weight to the Adagio and Fugue because this music is much more representative of the Sonatas & Partitas as a whole, both in terms of tempo and because of the minor key.  That's why I suggest, if people really are short of listening time, they concentrate on those first two movements.
So-o-o-o - combining your rankings but leaning a bit towards the first, and reading your comments, I'd suggest you've got: 
A3 - - - A6/A5 - A4 - - -A1 - A2

Which of those is the established GMG favourite??
Which is the Grand Master from yesteryear?
Which is the thinking man's crumpet?
Which is the new kid on the block?

Answers to all these questions and more - may take a while 

[Pim]

Not too late Pim, I've sent you some links in a PM.  This is obviously going to be a slow process, especially with Christmas and New Year coming up, so I'm hoping we can gain a bit more momentum in January.

In the mean time, keep 'em coming folks!

There was a problem with the attachments unfortunately, could you resend them please? Thanks!

[Drosera]

Aargh, shouldn't do this, no time, will probably forget about it and realise two months from now that I had work to do for a blind comparison....

Please send me some links. 

[amw]

Sooooo Group C.

There are two modern-instrument performances in this group (C1 and C5). Of those two, C5 is the superior performance in many respects, and I'm sure is many people's favourite. Particularly notable is the last minute or so of the fugue. At the same time a lot of little things about it rub me the wrong way. Recessed sound, too much vibrato, certain agogic decisions (eg hesitating too much on certain notes in the Minuets) and bowings (eg occasional violent scrunches that don't sit in the right places for me). C1 actually has more vibrato, I think, but it's not as obtrusive somehow. The violin playing in C1 comes across as really physical, though, which I like a lot—one gets a real sense of how Bach's writing engages with the physicality of performance and I can almost visualise the arm, hand and finger movements the violinist is going through.

Both adagios are a bit too overdramatised and romantic, with not much of a sense of emotional engagement. The fugues are better. They take somewhat different approaches: C1 keeps us engaged from the start with a sense of architecture not reliant on a gradual build towards a climax, whereas C5 starts out as a continuation of the emotional world of the adagio (not well evoked here, so this start is somewhat noncommittal and therefore the accents C5 throws into the mix seem out of place) but gradually develops towards this incredibly intense conclusion.

It's interesting to note that both of these MI accounts play the opening chord as shown in aukhawk's second example.

Our 4 period-instrument performances are a mixed bag but for the most part have the opposite problem: really strong adagios followed by fugues that don't really hold attention. In C2 the adagio unfolds almost outside of time, like an improvisation; the fugue is disciplined, but neither exciting nor cosmic. C3 has a middle-of-the-road but perfectly paced adagio and a middle-of-the-road fugue that starts out as a more successful version of C5, but never really reaches a payoff. In the end, it is dry. C4 I'll come back to. C6 has a resonant, long-breathed adagio that seems longer than it is (it is in fact the shortest one in this group, along with C4) and an intensely propulsive fugue, even dance-like in places, which comes to a very satisfying conclusion despite lacking the drama of C5.

C4 is my favourite in this group. It's also the token eccentric. I have no idea why things always work that way for me, btw. >.> The adagio possesses the surface of a calm stream disturbed by unpredictable currents, not as sleepy as C2 or C6 (and even more improvisatory than the former) but without the overt romanticisation of the modern-instrument accounts. The fugue sounds convincingly contrapuntal to start with—not always an easy task with this particular fugue—which retains interest while the intensity gradually builds. (I believe this is the slowest fugue in the group, and about a minute and a half longer than one recording I own.) This fugue is slightly underpowered, which I imagine will be the main criticism of C4 in general, but this in no way blunts the emotional effect for me. The dance movements served to solidify it—the minuets are very danceable despite being slow (also notes inégales or whatever the german version is called) and the gigue is decent. I actually prefer the slightly faster, more propulsive gigue in C6, but C4 is equally good and full of joie de vivre.

So C4 is first and C6 not far behind. The remaining places are a little bit harder to figure out but I think I would put C1 third, C2 fourth (despite its moments of magic, it remains a bit too low-energy. A shame as I'd hoped I would rate this recording higher), C3 fifth and C5 decidedly last. I should emphasise though that I would definitely listen to all of C6, C1 and C2, and possibly the Chaconne from C3 in the hope of a deeply reverential reading. C5 is the only obvious "wrong answer"; I know it's a good performance, but it annoys me in ways that become more pronounced the more I re-listen to it.

[aukhawk]

Thankyou so much amw, for that detailed and fascinating commentary.

... (I believe this is the slowest fugue in the group, and about a minute and a half longer than one recording I own.)

... though there are a few equal or slower ones in the comparison overall, including one which is over 40 seconds longer. 

... A shame as I'd hoped I would rate this recording higher) ...

Me too!  Going into this project I'd have rated this recording among my top favourites, though in the process of compiling the groups I discovered a couple of others that were new to me, that I like even better.  Though as you say - I would listen to them all ...

[Cato]

Sooooo Group C....

So C4 is first and C6 not far behind. The remaining places are a little bit harder to figure out but I think I would put C1 third, C2 fourth (despite its moments of magic, it remains a bit too low-energy. A shame as I'd hoped I would rate this recording higher), C3 fifth and C5 decidedly last. I should emphasise though that I would definitely listen to all of C6, C1 and C2, and possibly the Chaconne from C3 in the hope of a deeply reverential reading. C5 is the only obvious "wrong answer"; I know it's a good performance, but it annoys me in ways that become more pronounced the more I re-listen to it.

You have kindled a desire to hear these now!   0:) 0:) 0:)

[aukhawk]

PM(s) sent.

This is the advantage of having the responses not concealed.  I know it's a little less 'pure' in terms of being a blind comparison, but I think from my point of view the pluses outweigh the minuses.

Happy listening! 

[Cato]

PM(s) sent.

This is the advantage of having the responses not concealed.  I know it's a little less 'pure' in terms of being a blind comparison, but I think from my point of view the pluses outweigh the minuses.

Happy listening! 

Many thanks!   I will try to start listening tomorrow morning!

[Cato]

Here we go with D 1: the opening of the Adagio struck me as immediately dramatic, mysterious, and intriguing.  After a minute or so, the performer seemed to slow down even more, and I had the impression that Bach was turning into a member der Neuen Wiener Schule!     In the end, the performer made things hang together.

The Fugue was somewhat too slow for my taste, as if the performer were still learning the piece and seemed uncomfortable with it.  The Presto, on the other hand, gave me the impression that the violinist was more comfortable with it.

[Cato]

Today I unwrapped D 2 and D 3 and then D 4 as Christmas presents to myself... at 6:00 A.M.   

D 2

The Adagio starts off well, delicate yet dramatic, and about halfway through I was feeling a great sense of emotion coming through the playing.  The speed was not so "Adagio" that things fell apart, as it seems to happen sometimes in some of these performances.

The opening of the Fugue is a quite different story: it struck me as more of a Chugue.  The performer seemed to struggle and at times was sawing wood instead of giving us a flight of dancing. The Fugue resembled an overloaded airplane, with a sputtering motor, slowly rumbling down the runway, barely able to take off into the clouds until the last minute or so.

In great contrast, the Presto flew into the air immediately, a high-powered rocket! 

And then...because I was rather disappointed by the contradictions in D 2, I continued on to...

D 3

Incredible Adagio: not just dramatic, but tragic, a sad tale told by an ancient looking back at something pivotal, something central, and sighingly sinking down into gloom.  And it was very interesting to hear the Fugue, which is probably as slow as the one in D 2: but in contrast to a struggle of technique, the performer turned the violin into a voice of many colors, presenting a microcosmic novel in a few minutes.

The Presto was a little slower than in D 1 or D 2, but again there was a greater subtlety, an impression of a somewhat breathless story being related.

And then...

D 4,

Wondering whether the next version could measure up to D 3, I hear another incredible Adagio in D 4!  Slower than the others, wistful and melancholy, but again "novelistic" in that the violin has become a voice telling us a tale from long ago, just not as raw as in D 3.  A filigree of long-ago memories, recalled in a lingering way, and full of might-have-beens.   The Fugue again was not very fast, but gave us a story with ups and downs and knotty complications which somehow resolve themselves.  If one can call D 3 the story of an old man telling about some vile twist of fate ruining his life, then D 4 is his wife relating her point of view with resignation, rather than gloom.

The Presto, similar to D 3, was a little slower, with the joy of an autumn leaf being blown in the wind.

VERY DIFFICULT to rank, especially D 3 and D 4.

D 3

D 4

D 2

D 1

Depending  on mood, one could easily switch D 4 to the top.  The Presto - today - gave D 3 an edge.

[aukhawk]

I'm glad you're enjoying them.  Group D is a very interesting group, I think.

[kishnevi]

Group A
I would be glad to listen to five of them multiple times.

Top rank
1,3, 5
Second rank
2,4

Needs to get off the island
6

Don't know why my ears clumped the odd numbered choices together like that, but there is not really much difference in the degree to which I liked any of the five.  I listen sort of holistically, so this a general impression of the performance.

A6 seemed to have intonation issues (or else it was the way in which he arpeggiated the chords), a sinus infection, and a large but empty church as recording location.

[aukhawk]

... a sinus infection ...

Thanks for your rankings, Jeffrey.