Blind comparison: Bach's Violin Sonatas and Partitas

[Cato]

A partial review for the time being because of download issues suddenly:

C 4: Adagio and Fugue

I found the opening Adagio to be fine, but not particularly "grabbing."  The beginning of the Fugue  similar to several others - conveys a sense of struggle, but not in the good sense, i.e. it seemed as if the performer were wrestling with the notes because of a deficit in technique.  Eventually the violinist seems to pull things together and things take off.

C 5: Adagio and Fugue

A big sound, due to the venue (church?  empty concert hall?) gives the fine playing even more drama, and I was reminded of the drama in the opening of the  D minor Organ Toccata and Fugue.  However, I found the Fugue frustrating, for there were moments when it took flight, but then there were too many moments of sloshing through mud while sawing wood.

C 6: Adagio and Fugue

This one grabbed my attention with its delicacy and subtlety in the Adagio which created an almost mystical atmosphere throughout.  The light, delicate touch continues in the Fugue, with little to no impression of hacking one's way through a jungle of notes, and again an idea of a journey of uncovering mysteries comes through...at least to my ears.

No ranking, until I hear the others! 

Aukhawk: I sent you a message about the download problem.  0:)

[aukhawk]

Reply sent, sorry you had problems downloading.  I'm glad you like C6 - very much one of my favourites.  Likewise D3 that you also liked.
By the way - maybe I missed something - you commented on D1-D4, but D5 and D6 ??  (No pressure of course!)

Happy New Year everyone. 

[Cato]

Reply sent, sorry you had problems downloading.  I'm glad you like C6 - very much one of my favourites.  Likewise D3 that you also liked.
By the way - maybe I missed something - you commented on D1-D4, but D5 and D6 ??  (No pressure of course!)

Happy New Year everyone. 

Those (D 5 and 6) are on the list for tomorrow!   0:)  And everything is working again!

[Cato]

Today I unwrapped D 2 and D 3 and then D 4 as Christmas presents to myself... at 6:00 A.M.   

D 2

The Adagio starts off well, delicate yet dramatic, and about halfway through I was feeling a great sense of emotion coming through the playing.  The speed was not so "Adagio" that things fell apart, as it seems to happen sometimes in some of these performances.

The opening of the Fugue is a quite different story: it struck me as more of a Chugue.  The performer seemed to struggle and at times was sawing wood instead of giving us a flight of dancing. The Fugue resembled an overloaded airplane, with a sputtering motor, slowly rumbling down the runway, barely able to take off into the clouds until the last minute or so.

In great contrast, the Presto flew into the air immediately, a high-powered rocket! 

And then...because I was rather disappointed by the contradictions in D 2, I continued on to...

D 3

Incredible Adagio: not just dramatic, but tragic, a sad tale told by an ancient looking back at something pivotal, something central, and sighingly sinking down into gloom.  And it was very interesting to hear the Fugue, which is probably as slow as the one in D 2: but in contrast to a struggle of technique, the performer turned the violin into a voice of many colors, presenting a microcosmic novel in a few minutes.

The Presto was a little slower than in D 1 or D 2, but again there was a greater subtlety, an impression of a somewhat breathless story being related.

And then...

D 4,

Wondering whether the next version could measure up to D 3, I hear another incredible Adagio in D 4!  Slower than the others, wistful and melancholy, but again "novelistic" in that the violin has become a voice telling us a tale from long ago, just not as raw as in D 3.  A filigree of long-ago memories, recalled in a lingering way, and full of might-have-beens.   The Fugue again was not very fast, but gave us a story with ups and downs and knotty complications which somehow resolve themselves.  If one can call D 3 the story of an old man telling about some vile twist of fate ruining his life, then D 4 is his wife relating her point of view with resignation, rather than gloom.

The Presto, similar to D 3, was a little slower, with the joy of an autumn leaf being blown in the wind.

VERY DIFFICULT to rank, especially D 3 and D 4.

D 3

D 4

D 2

D 1

Depending  on mood, one could easily switch D 4 to the top.  The Presto - today - gave D 3 an edge.

To complete the rankings, I have today heard D 5 and D 6.

D 5 has a rather languid Adagio, with a speed-up-slow-down interpretation which was quasi-balletic.  The Fugue was eccentric: the speed-up-slow-down idea did not work in it.  At one point the player almost stopped completely.  The violin sounded occasionally harsh, wheezy, and even out-of-tune.  The Presto, however, sounded quite nice, as if a different player had taken over. 

D 6 seemed to have trouble with the chords at the beginning, somewhat rough and slightly out-of-tune a couple times.  The interpretation itself did have a story-like feel which kept one's attention.  The first half of the Fugue was too slow for my taste, and occasionally some notes are not quite right. The final part was better, but again I found it a bit lacking.  But then, as with D 5, the performer handled the Presto nicely.

Final rankings for the D Group: again, very difficult: D 5 and D 6 are somewhat tied, like D 3 and D 4 at the top.

D 3

D 4

D 2

D 1

D 6

D 5

[aukhawk]

Thanks for that ranking, Cato.  Yes D5 does have some tendencies towards the weird 

For what it's worth folks, there's not a lot of point in worrying about the ranking order of the also-rans in any group - placing 4th, 5th or 6th out of 6 isn't going to make any real difference when the results are totted up.

[Cato]

Okay, here we go with all of Group C!


C 1: A sense of struggling to intone the notes properly distracted me throughout both sections, with the performer at times sliding into or off the notes.  At other times it sounded perfunctory, and squeaky, and during the Fugue for about 5 seconds it seemed as if the performer had simply become lost.  A slower performance, with occasional signs of some expression.   The "dance" movements were nicely played, and at first I found the opening Menuet much too slow.  On the other hand, there was perhaps a little story being told through it, as a result of the slower speed.

C 2: Another variable speed Adagio, which comes across as sleepy at times, and with chords which occasionally are just clunks.  The Fugue opens very slowly, but eventually picks up speed, only to slow down later.   Again, squeaks and a few "clunky" chords distracted my ears.  The Menuet came across as very polite and deliberate, with an occasional hint of a smile.  Then in the Gigue some modest fun came through!

C 3: The opening of the Adagio is smoothly, delicately handled, and comes across almost as languid, but tinged with melancholy.  The Fugue is too slow and deliberate, but despite that the various aspects do "gel" and never fall apart.  For the dancing movements, the Menuet starts off well, but then becomes a little uneven in speed and energy.  The Gigue however is quite fine: one hears the expected joy from such a dance.

From earlier, but now with reviews of the "dance" movements:

C 4: Adagio and Fugue

I found the opening Adagio to be fine, but not particularly "grabbing."  The beginning of the Fugue -  similar to several others - conveys a sense of struggle, but not in the good sense, i.e. it seemed as if the performer were wrestling with the notes because of a deficit in technique.  Eventually the violinist seems to pull things together and things take off.

The Menuet has a fine start, and one feels a "naturalness" in the playing, but then the performer seemed to lose focus for 20 seconds or so. The second section, however, was quite fine.  The Gigue is nicely played, fairly fast and happy!

C 5: Adagio and Fugue

A big sound, due to the venue (church?  empty concert hall?) gives the fine playing even more drama, and I was reminded of the drama in the opening of the  D minor Organ Toccata and Fugue.  However, I found the Fugue frustrating, for there were moments when it took flight, but then there were too many moments of sloshing through mud while sawing wood.

Absolutely dreadful Menuet: it would be impossible to dance to this mess!  Squeaky, hammered chords, poor intonation at times, rubato beyond belief, as if the performer were having mini-episodes of manic depression.  The Gigue, however, was fairly good.

C 6: Adagio and Fugue

This one grabbed my attention with its delicacy and subtlety in the Adagio which created an almost mystical atmosphere throughout.  The light, delicate touch continues in the Fugue, with little to no impression of hacking one's way through a jungle of notes, and again an idea of a journey of uncovering mysteries comes through...at least to my ears. 

The Menuet seemed a little too slow, but as with C 1, a story of some sort began to percolate upward.  The Gigue had energy and the performer brought out the "hin-und-her"  in the music.

Rankings?  Well, last place is easy, as AMW wrote earlier!     C 5 wins last place with a Brown Ribbon...especially because the performer threw the Menuet into a wood-chipper! 

In general, not as strong a group as the others.  Between C 6 and C 5 I could be talked into various arrangements.

C 6

C 3

C 4

C 2

C 1









C 5

[prémont]

Some time has passed, since I last listened to any substantial part of the recordings of the S&P´s I own, and I do not intend to do it now, only to put names on some of the recordings, which aukhawk has chosen for this game. So the following isn´t but short notes after listening to Group B no.1 - 6.

B1)    Period instrument. Thin sounding violin tone, the playing better than the interpretation, which I find bland.

B2)    Modern instrument. Nice broad phrasing in the Adagio, but the Fugue hurried and often a bit hectic.

B3)    Period instrument. Beautiful relaxed and noble Adagio. Fugue rather slow and a bit pedestrian and too interventionist to my taste.

B4)    Period instrument. Slow and very excentric.

B5)    Modern instrument. Very extrovert. Too much fiddeling with dynamics and rubato. The interpreter makes an immature impression.

B6)    Modern instrument. Beautiful, introspective Adagio. Fuge with nice balanced playing, at least compared to B1-5.

Actually I do not really like any of these interpretations, and none of them strikes me as well-known (to me).

>>>> B6 >>>>> B3 >>> B2>B4>>>>>>B5=B1.

[Cato]

Some time has passed, since I last listened to any substantial part of the recordings of the S&P´s I own, and I do not intend to do it now, only to put names on some of the recordings, which aukhawk has chosen for this game. So the following isn´t but short notes after listening to Group B no.1 - 6.

B1)    Period instrument. Thin sounding violin tone, the playing better than the interpretation, which I find blend.

B2)    Modern instrument. Nice broad phrasing in the Adagio, but the Fugue hurried and often a bit hectic.

B3)    Period instrument. Beautiful relaxed and noble Adagio. Fugue rather slow and a bit pedestrian and too interventionist to my taste.

B4)    Period instrument. Slow and very excentric.

B5)    Modern instrument. Very extrovert. Too much fiddeling with dynamics and rubato. The interpreter makes an immature impression.

B6)    Modern instrument. Beautiful, introspective Adagio. Fuge with nice balanced playing, at least compared to B1-5.

Actually I do not really like any of these interpretations, and none of them strikes me as well-known (to me).

>>>> B6 >>>>> B3 >>> B2>B4>>>>>>B5=B1.

I felt somewhat similar after listening to Group C: Groups A and D have better recordings.

[prémont]

I felt somewhat similar after listening to Group C: Groups A and D have better recordings.

I shall try to persuade aukhawk to send me Group A and/or D.

[aukhawk]

Thanks.  I've sent you links for Group D, as that is lagging behind the other 3 a bit.  I'm hoping one or two other people will be able to take it on as a 2nd group, as we go on.

Actually I do not really like any of these interpretations, and none of them strikes me as well-known (to me).

Each of the four groups contains at least 2 recordings that have had repeated favourable comments in the GMG Sonatas & Partitas thread, and at least 1 recording by an older-generation 'name' of high renown - and at least one unknown or should I say unacknowledged recording - and Group B is no exception     (Likewise Group C, Cato)
Thanks for your comments and rankings by the way - and personally I pretty much approve of your rankings!! 
If it turns out there's a concensus about one group or other not being generally liked as much, there will be scope to take this into account a bit, going forward to the next round.

[prémont]

Thanks.  I've sent you links for Group D, as that is lagging behind the other 3 a bit.

I am the one to thank you. 

Each of the four groups contains at least 2 recordings that have had repeated favourable comments in the GMG Sonatas & Partitas thread, and at least 1 recording by an older-generation 'name' of high renown - and at least one unknown or should I say unacknowledged recording - and Group B is no exception     (Likewise Group C, Cato)

I do not doubt this. But but hopefully it does not oblige me to like them.

[aukhawk]

Indeed - and you were (relatively) kind in your comments about the 'joker' in pack B 

[Cato]

Starting Group B today:

B 1 - A not bad Adagio: it was played fairly nicely, but not a great amount of emotion could be heard.  The Fugue started out decently enough, but then fell apart in the last half, both technically and as an interpretation.  The Menuet sounded dance-like and jaunty, although again a few rough patches here and there spoiled things.  The Gigue was the best played out of all the pieces.

[mc ukrneal]

I hope to listen sometime this week....I haven't forgotten....

[Cato]

Starting Group B today:

B 1 - A not bad Adagio: it was played fairly nicely, but not a great amount of emotion could be heard.  The Fugue started out decently enough, but then fell apart in the last half, both technically and as an interpretation.  The Menuet sounded dance-like and jaunty, although again a few rough patches here and there spoiled things.  The Gigue was the best played out of all the pieces.

B 2 - A nice sound in the Adagio, but again, similar to B 1, not a great deal of expression came through.  The Fugue was much more dramatic than the Adagio, and it had a good deal of drive.  Occasional bumps here and there, but one went along for the ride.  The Menuet and Gigue were both fine to my ears.

B 3 - The Adagio is marked by some hurry-up-slow-down rubato at the beginning, along with a curiosity or two in the chords: does it work?  I would say yes: the effect is vocal, at the end there is a sense of a dramatic tenor singing.  The first half of the Fugue does not fugue!  It nearly stops more than once, and sounds like a river almost dammed and in danger of stagnating or flowing backward.  Toward the middle it picked up a little speed, but then stagnated again, and seemed to last forever.   It spoiled the Adagio for me.
More straightforward were the Menuet and Gigue  with the latter sounding quite nice.

[Cato]

Starting Group B today:

B 1 - A not bad Adagio: it was played fairly nicely, but not a great amount of emotion could be heard.  The Fugue started out decently enough, but then fell apart in the last half, both technically and as an interpretation.  The Menuet sounded dance-like and jaunty, although again a few rough patches here and there spoiled things.  The Gigue was the best played out of all the pieces.

B 2 - A nice sound in the Adagio, but again, similar to B 1, not a great deal of expression came through.  The Fugue was much more dramatic than the Adagio, and it had a good deal of drive.  Occasional bumps here and there, but one went along for the ride.  The Menuet and Gigue were both fine to my ears.

B 3 - The Adagio is marked by some hurry-up-slow-down rubato at the beginning, along with a curiosity or two in the chords: does it work?  I would say yes: the effect is vocal, at the end there is a sense of a dramatic tenor singing.  The first half of the Fugue does not fugue!  It nearly stops more than once, and sounds like a river almost dammed and in danger of stagnating or flowing backward.  Toward the middle it picked up a little speed, but then stagnated again, and seemed to last forever.   It spoiled the Adagio for me.
More straightforward were the Menuet and Gigue  with the latter sounding quite nice.

And now...

B 4 - Our fellow reviewer Premont called this very slow and eccentric.  Yes, it is so slow that the sense of any cohesion is almost lost.  The chords are handled like arpeggios from another planet, and their intonation at times is "iffy."  The Fugue is also slow, so slow and nearly formless that one might believe the performer to be a second-year violin student struggling through the piece.      The Menuet again is so slow that the piece tends to fall apart, as the performer makes us think he is struggling up Mount Everest.  The Gigue at least moves and dances fairly well.

[Cato]

B 1 - A not bad Adagio: it was played fairly nicely, but not a great amount of emotion could be heard.  The Fugue started out decently enough, but then fell apart in the last half, both technically and as an interpretation.  The Menuet sounded dance-like and jaunty, although again a few rough patches here and there spoiled things.  The Gigue was the best played out of all the pieces.

B 2 - A nice sound in the Adagio, but again, similar to B 1, not a great deal of expression came through.  The Fugue was much more dramatic than the Adagio, and it had a good deal of drive.  Occasional bumps here and there, but one went along for the ride.  The Menuet and Gigue were both fine to my ears.

B 3 - The Adagio is marked by some hurry-up-slow-down rubato at the beginning, along with a curiosity or two in the chords: does it work?  I would say yes: the effect is vocal, at the end there is a sense of a dramatic tenor singing.  The first half of the Fugue does not fugue!  It nearly stops more than once, and sounds like a river almost dammed and in danger of stagnating or flowing backward.  Toward the middle it picked up a little speed, but then stagnated again, and seemed to last forever.   It spoiled the Adagio for me.
More straightforward were the Menuet and Gigue  with the latter sounding quite nice.


B 4 - Our fellow reviewer Premont called this very slow and eccentric.  Yes, it is so slow that the sense of any cohesion is almost lost.  The chords are handled like arpeggios from another planet, and their intonation at times is "iffy."  The Fugue is also slow, so slow and nearly formless that one might believe the performer to be a second-year violin student struggling through the piece.      The Menuet again is so slow that the piece tends to fall apart, as the performer makes us think he is struggling up Mount Everest.  The Gigue at least moves and dances fairly well.
[/quote]

B 5 For about 5 seconds I thought that this performance might be at least halfway decent, until the performer started slapping his violin around like an abused wife.     There is a good amount of "interpretation" in dynamics and tempo, but they are incoherent.  Premont called it "immature," to which I would add "arrogant," as in the arrogance of adolescence.  The Menuet is played sprightly at first, but again a great deal of dithering with dynamics, attack, and rubato, so that one loses sight of the dance-like nature of the piece.  The Gigue tends to be given a more straight-forward reading.

[aukhawk]

Drop the other shoe, dammit!   

[Cato]

Drop the other shoe, dammit!   

Our computer system crashed at school, so I had to write this from home!   

B 6: Another rather eccentric performance, with notes fading in and out, and the intonation rather iffy at times.  Despite that, the Adagio had some okay moments, but I found the Fugue even more eccentric, and too full of a willful interpretation drawing attention to itself.  The Menuet showed some of these same problems, but, as in other problematic performances, the Gigue was nicely done!

So...

VERY difficult, mainly because, as Premont has mentioned also, none of them are particularly enticing!  Certainly B 5 in last place is appropriate, otherwise...

B 2

B 3

B 1

B 6

B4

B 5

[aukhawk]

Thanks - great comments as always, you can rest now, having listened to all 4 groups! 

Thats two rankings in for each of groups A,B,C - when we start to get the third ones in, I'll set a deadline for the round - though each of 4 groups will have to have at least 3 rankings (preferably more of course) before we can move on.