Author Topic: USA Politics (redux)  (Read 89783 times)

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Offline greg

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2720 on: June 14, 2021, 05:39:12 AM »
Historically and 'till the present the Americans have been obsessed with "liberty" and "rugged individualism" in the sense of I can do whatever I want with little regard for societal good ...
This is a dark view of some of the most important American values. Fewer people take it past that point, that is, past the NAP (non-aggression principle) point. That would just be antisocial tendencies, which is a smallish percentage of the population. They'll likely end up in prison.

Of course those principles are important- what is the opposite? Reliance on the government and helplessness to direct your own life? Doesn't sound like a better alternative.

It's very important as it is one of the reasons why America is responsible for so much innovation throughout its years.


More fundamentally, what is the cause of the frustration of so many Americans?  OK, they are mostly White, older, and small-town, but can they all be dismissed as just racists?  Or is there something also at work?  My hypothesis is that much of the frustration is based on the stagnation of incomes and the conviction their children will not better off than they have been.  (Not to say the racism is real enough.)
I'd say this is likely accurate, but it seems like you could get the answers for this more in detail somewhere if you looked for it.
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

Offline T. D.

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2721 on: June 14, 2021, 05:57:55 AM »
Wow, topsy turvy day, Droggy is the optimist and Henning the cynic. 

IMO, things aren't looking good for American democracy, let alone the Democratic agenda.

+1 with exclamation marks.

Offline drogulus

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2722 on: June 14, 2021, 06:06:25 AM »


But "Deutschland" had nothing in the way of carrots to offer.

     Yet it did, but only after the NAZIs decided to stop running out of money. If money run outs were real things depressions could never end. I mean, howyougonna payforit?
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Offline drogulus

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2723 on: June 15, 2021, 09:55:50 AM »
     Does the Welfare State Make Countries Richer?

Justin Fox: The coronavirus pandemic has caused a dramatic expansion in government-funded social welfare programs in many countries, including the United States. A major theme of your new book, “Making Social Spending Work” — as well as some of your earlier work — is that the welfare state is a free lunch. What do you mean by that?

Peter Lindert, Distinguished Professor of Economics, Emeritus, University of California at Davis: It’s a free lunch in the sense that it doesn’t lower our average incomes, but at the same time it does provide other things such as more equality, cleaner government, etc. Lifespans are longer, welfare states do not run bigger deficits, poverty is lower.


     I don't see how a welfare state could run a bigger deficit. Welfare dollars aren't going to come back any slower than other dollars. In fact, they will be spent at close to 100% by beneficiaries, so welfare dollars will recycle via taxation at least as efficiently as other dollars.

     To the extent that welfare spending acts to prop up capitalism by countering its tendency to impoverish its customers I'd say yes, welfare spending is enriching in its aggregate effects on the economy. However much people want to justify welfare states on ethical grounds, the only reason they could ever become the chosen path as countries become rich is good old fashioned brute force economics.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 10:11:10 AM by drogulus »
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Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2724 on: June 17, 2021, 09:55:21 AM »
...
     To the extent that welfare spending acts to prop up capitalism by countering its tendency to impoverish its customers I'd say yes, welfare spending is enriching in its aggregate effects on the economy. However much people want to justify welfare states on ethical grounds, the only reason they could ever become the chosen path as countries become rich is good old fashioned brute force economics.

In the first place there is no particular conflict or contradiction between either a market economy ort capitalism -- both continue to work in a welfare state.

Laissez faire capitalism does tend to concentrate wealth and power;  this may make an economy "richer" in terms of total GDP but give a hugely disproportionate share to the Rich.  But this is likely to, and I'd argue has already, increased social/political instability.

OTOH laissez faire might not even do this because better wealth distribution might increase overall Demand by giving typical citizens more purchasing power.  Ironically this could well benefit the Rich in the longer run thanks to the tendency for money to trickle up.

Thus there is no reason to assume the welfarism is justified only by ethics or altruism:  it likely makes very good sense in terms of fundamental economics.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 09:57:41 AM by Fëanor »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2725 on: June 17, 2021, 12:32:36 PM »
I am White, Male, Heterosexual and Christian...

What was the question?
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline geralmar

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2727 on: July 20, 2021, 07:03:39 AM »
The New York Times has produced a 40-minute documentary on the insurrection.  Andrew Clyde is featured prominently in the opening minutes:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJVMoe7OY0

Offline milk

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2728 on: July 23, 2021, 02:36:46 AM »
What was the question?
What is an oppressor?

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2729 on: July 23, 2021, 02:46:57 AM »
So, this person gets an 8 month sentence:  https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/19/capitol-riot-first-felony-sentence-500149

and this person gets 5 yearshttps://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/texas-woman-sentenced-five-years-trying-vote-gets-new-appeal-n1262691

 :-\

From the article:

"Since her arrest, Grinter said Mason has become a "tireless" voting rights advocate.

"It’s really important to her that people not see her story and get discouraged from going to the ballot box, because she feels like that’s exactly what the Tarrant County district attorney wants to have happen," she said."


Something to think about...

PD


Offline Que

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2730 on: July 23, 2021, 03:17:46 AM »
and this person gets 5 yearshttps://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/texas-woman-sentenced-five-years-trying-vote-gets-new-appeal-n1262691

 :-\

From the article:

"Since her arrest, Grinter said Mason has become a "tireless" voting rights advocate.

"It’s really important to her that people not see her story and get discouraged from going to the ballot box, because she feels like that’s exactly what the Tarrant County district attorney wants to have happen," she said."


Something to think about...

PD

Would she have been sentenced in this way, or even prosecuted if she would have been white?  ::)

If you would want to discourage black people from voting, a case like this seems very effective...

And:

https://theappeal.org/texas-da-who-sent-woman-to-prison-for-five-years-for-voting-made-her-own-election-mistake/

DA's looking for "easy" scores to look "though" while crime rates are going through the roof.

As I said before: you guys live in a scary country....
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 03:32:56 AM by Que »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2731 on: Today at 11:36:44 AM »
As I said before: you guys live in a scary country....


It's the people, mostly ....

America’s Imperfect Founding
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2732 on: Today at 12:28:46 PM »
It's the people, mostly ....

America’s Imperfect Founding
Thank you for that link Karl...quite interesting.  I'll give it a better and more complete reading tomorrow.

PD

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2733 on: Today at 02:34:42 PM »
Would she have been sentenced in this way, or even prosecuted if she would have been white?  ::)

If you would want to discourage black people from voting, a case like this seems very effective...

And:

https://theappeal.org/texas-da-who-sent-woman-to-prison-for-five-years-for-voting-made-her-own-election-mistake/


No doubt you were implying this, but just to underline it: The sentences are specifically designed as a threat to black people to keep them from voting. A white woman in Pennsylvania who intentionally voted three times for Trump was sentenced to three days in jail. In Texas she would probably have gotten off with zero.