Find out if you are good...or evil...

[mc ukrneal]

If I forbear from taking the quiz, am I good ... or evil?

The fun part isn't just the result, rather, I got a kick out of the questions....

[jochanaan]

The fun part isn't just the result, rather, I got a kick out of the questions....

Definitely Machiavellian.

[Karl Henning]

0:)

[vandermolen]

Infrequently vile too. 

[zamyrabyrd]

neither agree nor disagree

[Super Blood Moon]

Infrequently vile too. 

3

[jochanaan]

neither agree nor disagree

Good answer(s)!

[drogulus]

     I don't think a dumb internet quiz should say whether I'm good or evil. It should be up to the next of kin.

[greg]

So I'm reviving this thread to talk about the narcissism trait.

Anyone hear about Sam Vaknin, who is an Israeli guy who has one of the highest IQ scores in the world?

He is a self-diagnosed "cerebral narcissist" and describes in detail what made him that way, beginning in his childhood. The idea he puts forward is quite mindblowing- that narcissism is actually a personality developed from getting mixed signals from childhood- both extremely negative and positive. It's not a disorder- it's more like arrested development. Even if you are brought up with everyone saying that you are trash, you might end up prison (that's what trash does), but technically would not have a disorder since at least your worldview is consistent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W89fG8220D8


He wrote a book which seems to be well-received:
https://www.amazon.com/Malignant-Self-Love-Narcissism-Sam-Vaknin/dp/8023833847/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1KQCMLFY6H48K&keywords=sam+vaknin+malignant+self+love+narcissism+revisited&qid=1553082302&s=gateway&sprefix=sam+vakn%2Caps%2C170&sr=8-1


So, couldn't sleep all night thinking about this.  Although I only scored somewhat above average on the actual Dark Triad test for narcissism, the problem is that they go more for the traditional, extrovert style. The thing is, there is a version for introverts called "covert narcissism." I score high on that one.

I think what it amounts to is mostly just a really positive thing- mainly when it comes to music. I haven't realized it explicitly, but my motivation for writing music is more of a narcissistic reason in general- it's not so much that I want 16 year old Billy to feel happy when listening to my music (although that's fine), more that my motivations are that I want to influence other composers/guitarists and create music that will stand the test of time. The thing is, you can't be better and more creative at music than the next guy if you don't aim high, period- and it takes a massive ego to think you can get that far.

But the above is basically the same as many composers (think, Wagner, or Schoenberg, who wanted to influence the entire genre of classical music for a long time, and succeeded)- so it's not so bad, they are in the same boat! 

[Wendell_E]

"Shockingly Saintly"

Well, I'm not shocked, though others may disagree.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Pretty stupid test, I'd say. For each question it was clear, "if I want to be categorized as evil I should answer X." The entire test could be replaced by one question. "You you consider yourself evil?"

[greg]

Pretty stupid test, I'd say. For each question it was clear, "if I want to be categorized as evil I should answer X." The entire test could be replaced by one question. "You you consider yourself evil?"

True. I realized the same thing with all of these types of tests, and in some way they might actually be useless.

Also, I feel like it is very fluid over one's life. I scored way higher than last time (~10 years ago) on Machiavellianism when I took the test because my understanding of the world had changed since then. I realized that no one will ever give you anything, and even if you play by the rules, you have a good chance at losing, so there really isn't much incentive to play by the rules, as long as you don't get caught.

If you have a strong survival instinct, you will only become more "evil"  (or selfish) over time, unfortunately, when you realize how bad the world really is.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

If you have a strong survival instinct, you will only become more "evil"  (or selfish) over time, unfortunately, when you realize how bad the world really is.

That silly remark is more revelatory than the result of 100 internet personality tests...

[greg]

Not sure how it's silly, considering with each passing year we are turning our backs from capitalism and concentrating wealth in the hands of few- and it's only going to get worse.

So personally, right now I can play by the rules and still do well (so I don't actually have to be Machiavellian), but if people start breaking the rules in order to obtain wealth, then I'm more understanding than I used to be. In 10-20 years nearly half of the jobs will be automated, so what are people going to do? (also possible that I have a future role that may involve the automation of such jobs)

The system is dying, the nuclear family is dying, pretty much everything is starting to revert back to how it was. Even such a thing as monogamy, which we take for granted, is really not natural to humanity, and is dying. Just look at human history- it's mainly just polygamy for lucky men and death for unlucky men. And extreme wealth inequality. What good is playing by the rules when you don't have a chance? That's why even nowadays in some African countries you have guys stealing cows so they can build up enough wealth to afford one wife, while other guys have many wives- and in the process they often get murdered. That right there is Machiavellian, but you gotta do what you gotta do, I suppose. 

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Not sure how it's silly, considering with each passing year we are turning our backs from capitalism and concentrating wealth in the hands of few- and it's only going to get worse.

So personally, right now I can play by the rules and still do well (so I don't actually have to be Machiavellian), but if people start breaking the rules in order to obtain wealth, then I'm more understanding than I used to be. In 10-20 years nearly half of the jobs will be automated, so what are people going to do? (also possible that I have a future role that may involve the automation of such jobs)

The system is dying, the nuclear family is dying, pretty much everything is starting to revert back to how it was. Even such a thing as monogamy, which we take for granted, is really not natural to humanity, and is dying. Just look at human history- it's mainly just polygamy for lucky men and death for unlucky men. And extreme wealth inequality. What good is playing by the rules when you don't have a chance? That's why even nowadays in some African countries you have guys stealing cows so they can build up enough wealth to afford one wife, while other guys have many wives- and in the process they often get murdered. That right there is Machiavellian, but you gotta do what you gotta do, I suppose.

I think you should recognize how much of that darkness is in your head, how much of that worldview flows in the sewers like facebook, youtube and "social media" platforms. The world has always been a violent place. Read a naturalistic novel written a hundred years ago or more and you will see  how difficult life was in the past. Inequality is growing in the United States and other developed countries, yes. The worst thing they say about it is that it is approaching levels seen in the 1920's. We've been there and fixed it. The biggest obstacle is the sort of pessimism and cynicism that you are expressing.

About the automation, take the doomsday view if you want. Half of all jobs will be automated. That means that unemployment will be 50%? Maybe. Or maybe it means that there will still be jobs for anyone who wants a job and the automation will dramatically increase the productivity of those jobs. The same warnings were given when automated looms were invented. All of the poor girls working in sweatshops will starve. They didn't.

The third world is full of poverty and inhumanity. But economic growth in parts of the third world is booming and more and more people are emerging from deep poverty. China used to be one of the poorest nations on earth. Now they are approaching first world quality of life, although they have an oppressive state to contend with.

If "playing by the rules" means being honest and kind, it is the road to satisfaction, even if it is not the road to living in a McMansion and getting a new iPhone every 6 months.

If there is something to worry about it is none of that. It is the climate. We can be optimistic and think the civilization collapse will fix the CO2 problem before the worst of it happens.

[greg]

Well, hopefully all will be fine, as you said. I imagine the future only has two extreme possibilities- much better than how it is now, or much worse, all due to technological power.

I think what really didn't help my worldview was in my early 20's when the world economy collapsed right after spending nearly 2 years in school, and unable to find a job. It simply alerted me that whatever "rules" that society has for success are subject to change, and it took years to "correct" this.

As for climate change, I really don't care much personally about the topic since I doubt it will have as much of an immediate financial impact, and I don't plan to have kids, nor do I care about other people's kids. (Probably would consider solar panels in the future, though).

About the automation, take the doomsday view if you want. Half of all jobs will be automated. That means that unemployment will be 50%? Maybe. Or maybe it means that there will still be jobs for anyone who wants a job and the automation will dramatically increase the productivity of those jobs. The same warnings were given when automated looms were invented. All of the poor girls working in sweatshops will starve. They didn't.

The problem with being too optimistic is that when disaster happens, you will be utterly unprepared at all, and it will be that much more catastrophic. Just because something "similar" is reoccurring doesn't mean that it is the same- there are too many variables that can cause it to be a much different thing.

If "playing by the rules" means being honest and kind, it is the road to satisfaction, even if it is not the road to living in a McMansion and getting a new iPhone every 6 months.

Being honest and kind is great, but it's more of a privilege of a well-functioning society. Be honest and kind in malfunctioning society and you starve.

In extreme form, it's not a matter of middle class vs. owning a mansion, it's a matter of life and death. Just think how being kind would mean your death if a real life Battle Royale occured (iirc they did that in Russia once).

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Well, hopefully all will be fine, as you said. I imagine the future only has two extreme possibilities- much better than how it is now, or much worse, all due to technological power.

It is not due to technological power. It is due to society's ability to reform itself to shape the use of new technical possibilities.

I think what really didn't help my worldview was in my early 20's when the world economy collapsed right after spending nearly 2 years in school, and unable to find a job. It simply alerted me that whatever "rules" that society has for success are subject to change, and it took years to "correct" this.

This is a legitimate complaint. It was very bad compared to anything in the post-war era. But in the past booms and busts were much more extreme than today.

As for climate change, I really don't care much personally about the topic since I doubt it will have as much of an immediate financial impact, and I don't plan to have kids, nor do I care about other people's kids. (Probably would consider solar panels in the future, though).

"Nor do you care about other people's kids?" I am aghast, frankly. I see your pessimism is fully justified if you assume that everyone thinks like you do. Fortunately, many don't.

The problem with being too optimistic is that when disaster happens, you will be utterly unprepared at all, and it will be that much more catastrophic. Just because something "similar" is reoccurring doesn't mean that it is the same- there are too many variables that can cause it to be a much different thing.

No. Optimism and activism is needed to address problems, rather than wallow.

Being honest and kind is great, but it's more of a privilege of a well-functioning society. Be honest and kind in malfunctioning society and you starve.

There is some truth is what you say, that being refined is a luxury of the affluent. But my experience is that it is in wealthy subdivisions that you find people who don't know their neighbors. In a poor subdivision you will find neighbors that are interdependent and help each other.

In extreme form, it's not a matter of middle class vs. owning a mansion, it's a matter of life and death. Just think how being kind would mean your death if a real life Battle Royale occured (iirc they did that in Russia once).

You really live in a comic-book universe.

[greg]

It is not due to technological power. It is due to society's ability to reform itself to shape the use of new technical possibilities.

Yes, that is exactly what will determine whether it ends up for the best or the worst. But it is mostly up to the influence of the elites which already control most of the world's wealth.

"Nor do you care about other people's kids?" I am aghast, frankly. I see your pessimism is fully justified if you assume that everyone thinks like you do. Fortunately, many don't.

In a financial sense, I'm not responsible for helping out others' kids. But I wish them the best.

No. Optimism and activism is needed to address problems, rather than wallow.

I don't equate pessimism to wallowing. It's the first step to recognizing the problem and starting on the resolution.

Optimism can be something you can use while working on the problem- if you think there is a solution, than it can encourage you to find it. So both are kinda needed. But optimism comes afterwards- start with it, and it has a tendency to ignore the problem entirely.

There is some truth is what you say, that being refined is a luxury of the affluent. But my experience is that it is in wealthy subdivisions that you find people who don't know their neighbors. In a poor subdivision you will find neighbors that are interdependent and help each other.

Yeah, you can even see this in lower-middle class and middle class neighborhoods (based on my own experience). The lower-middle class neighborhood was much more fun as a kid, friends everywhere...

Not sure I'd bring up being interdependent as anything positive, though, that really sounds terrible. Self-sufficiency is much more desirable.

You really live in a comic-book universe.

Stories can be used to understand humanity and possibilities, so no reason to dismiss them.

And it really happened before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbGsVBOtoA

[drogulus]

     People have more control over their destiny if they think they do, even if thinking they have more control over their destiny is not under their control.

     

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

That's the crux of it. Free will is now a neuroscience question.