Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.

Started by Mandryka, December 11, 2015, 09:45:06 PM

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Mandryka

I hope no one minds if I kick this off by asking a question about the early music analogue of the Missa Solemnis, the extraordinary Missa Maria Zart.

How do you find Peter Philips's recording? Has anyone heard the LP by Madrigal Singers of Prague? I'm tempted to get it, but I'd like to know what the style's like first.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#1
Other recordings of Obrecht's sacred music I've enjoyed.

Top of the list is Cappella Pratensis's mass. And The Clerks Group recording with the Missa Sub Tuum Praesidium. I have a couple of recordings on order now - Clerks Group doing Missa Malheur me bat, and the CD from The Sound and The Fury. I  also like the mass recording from Oxford Camerata very much.

And then there are all those CDs from Janos Bali and his Hungarian Choir. Does anyone like his way with the music?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

The new erato

Quote from: Mandryka on December 11, 2015, 09:45:06 PM
I hope no one minds if I kick this off by asking a question about the early music analogue of the Missa Solemnis, the extraordinary Missa Maria Zart.

How do you find Peter Philips's recording? Has anyone heard the LP by Madrigal Singers of Prague? I'm tempted to get it, but I'd like to know what the style's like first.


I have  the Supraphon LP in front of me writing this, but perversely haven't  had my record player connected to my system for 15 years. I also have the P P CD and cannot remember anything besides liking it. An astounding work and Obrecht probably (?) the most underrecorded polyphonist of them all (Isaac also comes to mind).

The new erato

There's also the Missa Sicut Rosa Spinum on this recommended disc:

[asin]B0086WQO9A[/asin]

Mandryka

#4
Quote from: The new erato on December 12, 2015, 01:50:32 AM
I have  the Supraphon LP in front of me writing this, but perversely haven't  had my record player connected to my system for 15 years. I also have the P P CD and cannot remember anything besides liking it. An astounding work and Obrecht probably (?) the most underrecorded polyphonist of them all (Isaac also comes to mind).

Does the LP sleeve say what the scale of it is? Do they use instruments? Big choir or small?

This is such an important piece I think -- the Peter Philips recording is very satisfactory too. On amazon you'll read complaining reviews which say that it's boring music, but I think it's full of major events, and has a rigour which, as always with Obrecht, makes me think of composers like J S Bach and Ludwig van Beethoven. If you're not dependent on music stuffed with tunes you can hum and rhythms you can tap your feet to, then I think you'll be bowled over by the mass.  And someone complains that The Tallis Singers are too cold and too risk-averse, but I think that's nonsense.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

The new erato

Quote from: Mandryka on December 12, 2015, 07:07:12 AM
Does the LP sleeve say what the scale of it is? Do they use instruments? Big choir or small?

This is such an important piece I think -- the Peter Philips recording is very satisfactory too. On amazon you'll read complaining reviews which say that it's boring music, but I think it's full of major events, and has a rigour which, as always with Obrecht, makes me think of composers like J S Bach and Ludwig van Beethoven. If you're not dependent on music stuffed with tunes you can hum and rhythms you can tap your feet to, then I think you'll be bowled over by the mass.  And someone complains that The Tallis Singers are too cold and too risk-averse, but I think that's nonsense.
Now I'm out of town, I'll  try to remember to chech/czech when I'm back tomorrow.


Mandryka

Quote from: The new erato on December 13, 2015, 04:18:16 AM
Yep, instruments it is.

Instruments I can live with. However I managed to find a recording of them singing a Dufay mass and it was full of bumpy accents at the beginning of alleged bars, and the voices were shrill. So I think I'll give their Obrecht a miss. But thanks for checking.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

The new erato

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2015, 08:06:46 AM
Instruments I can live with. However I managed to find a recording of them singing a Dufay mass
La face ay Pale? I have that as well. Bought at a time when these in many regards were the only game in town. How things have changed!

Archaic Torso of Apollo

I read somewhere that Obrecht was the first composer to leave a significant body of instrumental music. Are there any recordings focusing on it?
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Mandryka

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 13, 2015, 08:21:29 AM
I read somewhere that Obrecht was the first composer to leave a significant body of instrumental music. Are there any recordings focusing on it?

I didn't know that he had written purely instrumental music, so I can't help you.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Some things by  Obrecht sound like no one else that I know. I've been listen the Christmans motet Factor Orbis (The Clerks Group) together with the commentary by Jennifer Bloxam here.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=n0ct5-2sQ9gC&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=obrecht+factor+orbis+exegesis&source=bl&ots=0j_GVrJomS&sig=zP5OF6qvKNQdd9BDYcE-rwBuW1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjyuq_4NnJAhXLcRQKHfaOAZ8Q6AEIKTAB#v=onepage&q=obrecht%20factor%20orbis%20exegesis&f=false

So it looks as though Obrecht was writing exegetical music. This is new territory for me, I know that people argue that Bach's choral preludes are musical exegeses, but I've never seen it argued for any other composer.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2015, 12:21:40 PM
Some things by  Obrecht sound like no one else that I know. I've been listen the Christmans motet Factor Orbis (The Clerks Group) together with the commentary by Jennifer Bloxam here.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=n0ct5-2sQ9gC&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=obrecht+factor+orbis+exegesis&source=bl&ots=0j_GVrJomS&sig=zP5OF6qvKNQdd9BDYcE-rwBuW1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjyuq_4NnJAhXLcRQKHfaOAZ8Q6AEIKTAB#v=onepage&q=obrecht%20factor%20orbis%20exegesis&f=false

So it looks as though Obrecht was writing exegetical music. This is new territory for me, I know that people argue that Bach's choral preludes are musical exegeses, but I've never seen it argued for any other composer.

What do you mean by exegetical?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

Quote from: The new erato on December 13, 2015, 08:11:37 AM
La face ay Pale? I have that as well. Bought at a time when these in many regards were the only game in town. How things have changed!

No it was Ave Regina Caelorum
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on December 13, 2015, 12:23:58 PM
What do you mean by exegetical?

I mean that the music contains a commentary on the associated text.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2015, 12:29:05 PM
I mean that the music contains a commentary on the associated text.

Then the most exegetic music there is must be Kuhnau´s Biblical Sonatas.  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

#16
Quote from: Florestan on December 13, 2015, 12:37:08 PM
Then the most exegetic music there is must be Kuhnau´s Biblical Sonatas.  :D

It depends. If it comments on and elucidates the texts, revealing subtle or hidden meanings, then yes. If it just depicts  the text, then, well . . . it's not very interesting from this point of view. It's like the difference between a sermon by Luther and a picture from a children's bible. I haven't explored Kuhnau much.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2015, 12:43:33 PM
It depends. If it comments on and elucidates the texts, revealing subtle or hidden meanings, then yes.

Opera in a nutshell.  :D

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

#18
Quote from: Florestan on December 13, 2015, 12:46:16 PM
Opera in a nutshell.  :D

Yes. When I started to listen to and read about Factor Orbis I couldn't stop myself thinking of those quintets and sextets in Cosi fan Tutte. And what a shame it is that Wagner didn't complete his Buddhist opera, or the Gospel of St Matthew. Of course, the best exegetical music is when the text isn't actually there.

I think that History of Photography in Sound is probably exegetical. But I'm not sure.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2015, 01:00:54 PM
Yes. When I started to listen to and read about Factor Orbis I couldn't stop myself thinking of those quintets and sextets in Cosi fan Tutte.

Soave sia il vento, perhaps certainly the most heartfelt trio ever.  8)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini