Sibelius Symphony Showdown: the 4th vs. the 5th

[Mirror Image]

I think the Fourth Symphony's polar opposite (if it has one, which it may not) is the Third. #4 and #5 share a heroic "questing" quality, and both face many challenges and hardships. Each movement of the Fifth has at least one moment of great pain, uncertainty, and/or anguish, most notably the very Fourth-ish bassoon solo. I think the two symphonies start from a similar place*, but they pursue the material in very different ways and, of course, achieve very different ends. The Fourth begins with mystery, unease, and disquiet, and ends the same way; the Fifth begins with those same things, but mostly overcomes them - or almost overcomes them - or hey, maybe it does overcome them.

*the Fifth Symphony's first movement is expanded from the first movement of the Fourth Symphony, very literally; compare their opening themes, or wait until 4:07-4:15 in this performance, when the French horns foreshadow the Fifth Symphony's main tune.

I don't agree. I think the 4th is Sibelius' darkest, most brooding symphony. It probes depths which the 5th never quite reaches, but, this is my point, they are different animals. There are some similarities, which you detailed, but that's merely on the surface and these similarities don't last very long. There is nothing in the 5th that has the same kind of what I would refer to as an 'emotional surrender' as the 4th's third movement (Il tempo largo). For me, this is the most magnificent single pieces of music I know. There are some bright moments in the 4th as well, but these very quickly subside and give way to the continuous turmoil that runs deep within this symphony.

[Brahmsian]

Sarge

Wish I knew how to read music and know which part of that symphony it would be.  I am assuming the 5th? 

[Mirror Image]

Wish I knew how to read music and know which part of that symphony it would be.  I am assuming the 5th?

Yes, I barely know how to read, but it's the "Swan" theme from the last movement of the 5th.

[Brahmsian]

Yes, I barely know how to read, but it's the "Swan" theme from the last movement of the 5th.

Approximately at what time does it start in the average recording?

[Mirror Image]

Approximately at what time does it start in the average recording?

I'll let the YouTube do the talking for me:

https://www.youtube.com/v/CVtJKrVDHPQ

The 'swan' theme begins around 23:30. You'll recognize it instantly.

[Sergeant Rock]

Approximately at what time does it start in the average recording?

At 1:24 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/v/nkzrSZKA4cM


Sarge

[Brahmsian]

I'll let the YouTube do the talking for me:

The 'swan' theme begins around 23:30. You'll recognize it instantly.

Aww, yes, that lovely, gorgeous theme.  It is indeed remarkable!    Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, learn something new every day. 

[Brahmsian]

At 1:24 in this video:



Sarge

  Thank you, Sarge.  Incredible.  Hard to think of anything more gorgeous than that, indeed. 

[Mirror Image]

Aww, yes, that lovely, gorgeous theme.  It is indeed remarkable!    Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, learn something new every day. 

There's nothing trite about any of the 5th. People who refer to any of the 5th as 'trite' really ought to ask themselves, "Why is my heart so black?" Haha....

[Jo498]

You do not have to believe me but I really find the "swan hymn" fairly boring and find that it is repeated once or twice too often. I get that the lapidary style is basically the point (similarly to Bruckner, but then Bruckner at least writes fugues or such things with the broad tunes), still not terribly fond of it, so I voted for #4.
If I want monumental brass, I'd rather go for the finale of the 2nd. In the 5th Sibelius is somehow both austere and monumental and this does not work so well for me (again, I happily concede that this may be exactly what others find so enticing), so I prefer the even more austere 4 and 6 or the unashamedly bombastic 2nd.

[Elgarian]

I'll let the YouTube do the talking for me:

https://www.youtube.com/v/CVtJKrVDHPQ

The 'swan' theme begins around 23:30. You'll recognize it instantly.

Yes yes yes - the closing section is wonderful, and the 'simple' beauty of the theme, and the way it stretches towards the end into something unbearably poignant is breathtaking, and I'm with him, yes, yes all the way up to 31.00 (timing referring to that Vanska recording you posted) and my eyes are filling with tears. And then, OMG, for crying out loud, what does he go and do?!

Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Ding. Dong!

I've never understood the purpose of those final notes and I feel so utterly let down by them that I don't even want to know what it might have been. I've winced, groaned, moaned, and been sickened by them for 50 years. They have provided me with my biggest and longest-lasting musical disappointment: the most calamitous damp squib in the history of my music listening.

[Brahmsian]

You do not have to believe me but I really find the "swan hymn" fairly boring and find that it is repeated once or twice too often. I get that the lapidary style is basically the point (similarly to Bruckner, but then Bruckner at least writes fugues or such things with the broad tunes), still not terribly fond of it, so I voted for #4.
If I want monumental brass, I'd rather go for the finale of the 2nd. In the 5th Sibelius is somehow both austere and monumental and this does not work so well for me (again, I happily concede that this may be exactly what others find so enticing), so I prefer the even more austere 4 and 6 or the unashamedly bombastic 2nd.

Oh boy, I wish it would go for longer (a la Shostakovich 7th march in the 1st movement). 

[Brahmsian]

Yes yes yes - the closing section is wonderful, and the 'simple' beauty of the theme, and the way it stretches towards the end into something unbearably poignant is breathtaking, and I'm with him, yes, yes all the way up to 31.00 (timing referring to that Vanska recording you posted) and my eyes are filling with tears. And then, OMG, for crying out loud, what does he go and do?!

Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Ding. Dong!

I've never understood the purpose of those final notes and I feel so utterly let down by them that I don't even want to know what it might have been. I've winced, groaned, moaned, and been sickened by them for 50 years. They have provided me with my biggest and longest-lasting musical disappointment: the most calamitous damp squib in the history of my music listening.

OK, this belongs in the GMG greatest quotes ever.    BTW, Sarge will vehemently disagree with you.    Apparently, the way Vanska approaches those final 6 smashing chords is how it is supposed to be done?  That most conductors "cheat" that ending by trying to speed it up too much?

[Jaakko Keskinen]

You do not have to believe me but I really find the "swan hymn" fairly boring

Some months ago I called the swan hymn artificial, in a bad way, on this very forum. Then I started to love it again.

But I still prefer 4th.

[Mirror Image]

Some months ago I called the swan hymn artificial, in a bad way, on this very forum. Then I started to love it again.

But I still prefer 4th.

Personally, I don't understand what's "artificial" about it and probably will never understand. One of the most gorgeous passages in music IMHO.

[Sergeant Rock]

the most calamitous damp squib in the history of my music listening.

BTW, Sarge will vehemently disagree with you.

I do disagree. I think that cadence, hammerblows and silence, is original and brilliant...and shocking, especially when heard the first time (for me it was a live experience, Maazel/Cleveland, Dec 1971). There is a finality I find very satisfying. The last two measures an amen.

Apparently, the way Vanska approaches those final 6 smashing chords is how it is supposed to be done?  That most conductors "cheat" that ending by trying to speed it up too much?

It's the way I think it should be done. Vänskä is very good. Salonen, in the vid I posted, rushes the chords (it had been going so well up to that point; really love his broad Swan theme). The worst offender was Karajan, who never gave the rests full measure.

Järvi/Gothenburg              13:53  10:11   9:23  (22 seconds)
Ormandy/Philadelphia       13:33   9:43   10:06 (21 seconds)
Berglund/Bournemouth     13:26   9:07     9:27 (21 seconds)
Vänskä/Lahti                    13:30   8:47    9:27  (21 seconds)
Rattle/Philharmonia           13:38   8:28    9:18  (21 seconds)
Davis/LSO (Live)               13:30   8:06    9:00 (21 seconds)
Davis/LSO (RCA)               13:15   8:13    8:42 (21 seconds)
Celibidache/Swed RSO       15:22   9:16    9:50 (20 seconds)
Bernstein/New York            12:35  9:46    9:35  (20 seconds)
Rattle/CBSO                      12:45   8:19    9:12  (20 seconds)   
Saraste/Finnish RSO           13:05  8:47    9:24  (19 seconds)
Davis/Boston                     14:55   9:01   7:58  (19 seconds)
Barbirolli/Hallé                   14:00   9:00   9:55  (18 seconds)
Sanderling/Berlin SO          14:24   8:41   9:19  (18 seconds)
Berglund/LPO Live             13:33    8:15   9:16  (18 seconds)
Berglund/COE                   12:36    8:42   9:10  (18 seconds)
Blomstedt San Francisco     13:44    8:12   9:00  (18 seconds)
Maazel/Vienna                   11:57    7:12   8:04  (18 seconds)
Maazel/Pittsburgh              13:21    9:17   8:57  (17 seconds)
Schmidt/RPO                     12:05    8:32   8:11  (17 seconds)
Segerstam/Helsinki             14:30   9:23   9:46  (16 seconds)
Sakari/Iceland                   13:28    8:36   9:04  (15 seconds)
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow     13:22    7:40   8:06  (15 seconds)
Inkinen/New Zealand         13:52    9:36   9:03  (14 seconds)
Ashkenazy/Philarmonia       13:13    9:31   8:50  (13 seconds)
Karajan/Berlin (EMI)          14:08    8:55   9:03  (12 seconds)
Karajan/Berlin (Live 1957)  12:22   7:23    8:58  (10 seconds) 


Sarge

[Mirror Image]

Yes yes yes - the closing section is wonderful, and the 'simple' beauty of the theme, and the way it stretches towards the end into something unbearably poignant is breathtaking, and I'm with him, yes, yes all the way up to 31.00 (timing referring to that Vanska recording you posted) and my eyes are filling with tears. And then, OMG, for crying out loud, what does he go and do?!

Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Ding. Dong!

I've never understood the purpose of those final notes and I feel so utterly let down by them that I don't even want to know what it might have been. I've winced, groaned, moaned, and been sickened by them for 50 years. They have provided me with my biggest and longest-lasting musical disappointment: the most calamitous damp squib in the history of my music listening.

I'm with Sarge on the ending. I think it's kind of a benediction of sorts. I personally find absolutely nothing wrong with it and considering the unbelievable music that came before it, I find the ending makes peace with everything that proceeded it. It's really the only way it could have ended. Quite unique.

[Brian]

Well, unlike some, I don't understand that ending, don't know what it means, and am continually left in a puzzlement. But it is rather refreshing to have a great symphony end in a way that challenges, rather than affirms, its listener...

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Personally, I don't understand what's "artificial" about it and probably will never understand. One of the most gorgeous passages in music IMHO.

Pendulum movement often seems artificial in my eyes. Nevertheless my point was that I love it nowadays.

[Elgarian]

I think it's kind of a benediction of sorts.

It is truly remarkable how violently different can be our (I speak generally) interpretations of what we're hearing. I read 'benediction' here ... and I can't believe we're taking about those same 4 Bang!s followed by a Slam! Dunk! at the end.

considering the unbelievable music that came before it ...

I am with you all the way thus far ...

I find the ending makes peace with everything that proceeded it. It's really the only way it could have ended.

'Peace?' 'the only way?' I don't get this at all. He could have ended it with with 'Tarantaraaaah' on massed tubas, bagpipes and kazoos, and I wouldn't have boggled more dismayingly at it. You understand of course that I'm perfectly willing to accept what you and Sarge are saying: that there is some profound musical resolution going on that I'm missing. But if so, I'll never learn to see it. Not after all these years, and all these listenings.