Where to go next?

[Elgarian]

May I throw myself on the mercy of the wise jazz folk here, and ask for help?

For a long time jazz was a closed book to me, until I discovered 30s and 40s swing. Benny Goodman rocks. I love those female vocalists of the period: Annette Hanshaw, Helen Ward, Anita O'Day - you know the sort of thing.

Now I've been perfectly capable of finding my way around that swing era, and there's a lot I still haven't explored. But whenever I try to move out of it, I hit a brick wall. Seeking advice from a jazz enthusiast I bought Kind of Blue, on the grounds that since it was the best-selling jazz album of all time, I ought to find it accessible. I just couldn't cope with it. Couldn't hear any tunes, found the very sound of it annoying. I haven't given up on it: I give it another try about once a year, but have made zero progress. Alright then, how about Brubeck: I could remember 'Take Five' from when it was a hit, and that had lots of melody in it. I bought a couple of Brubeck albums, and just got stuck. Somewhat more approachable, yes, sometimes - but an awful lot of the time I might as well have been listening to scale exercises, for all the effect it had on me.

So here's my question. Clearly I need pointing towards some really easy jazz, from the 1950s onwards. I need to find jazz where the improvisational noodling can easily be recognised to be derived from a recognisable tune. Can anyone please make some recommendations? I don't mind being thought a numbskull, if only I can find some more jazz that I'm capable of enjoying.

[Jo498]

"I need to find jazz where the improvisational noodling can easily be recognised to be derived from a recognisable tune."
LOL. This is a great quote. I have been dabbling with (listening to) Jazz for more than 20 years and I like "Kind of Blue" but I can sympathize with that statement to some extent. It usually *cannot* be easily recognized and by now I think that to demand such would probably missing the point.
But try maybe some Miles Davis before KoB (hopefully youtube can give some impressions), e.g. the "Walkin'", "Workin'" etc. series. Or maybe the (partly/mostly?) written down "Porgy and Bess" (post KoB) where you probably know the tunes already.

[Parsifal]

You mention Benny Goodman, have you listened to much Duke Ellington? His arrangements were the most sophisticated of the swing era and he had superb soloists whose improvisations were shaped by Ellington's musical conception. He had a long career but I think his very best work was recorded by 1940.  (I got to know him through a set released by the Smithsonian Institution called "an explosion of genius" which covers 1938-41).  There is a nice that has a lot of the best material.

http://www.amazon.com/Masterpieces-1926-49-Duke-Ellington/dp/B00005MOCT/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1450737024&sr=8-20&keywords=duke+ellington

Also, NAXOS has a fairly exhaustive series of releases of Ellington's shellac discs.

[Brian]

But try maybe some Miles Davis before KoB (hopefully youtube can give some impressions), e.g. the "Walkin'", "Workin'" etc. series. Or maybe the (partly/mostly?) written down "Porgy and Bess" (post KoB) where you probably know the tunes already.

I know it is mostly seen as simpler/plainer/lighter, but the Workin/Cookin/Relaxin/Steamin series of Miles Davis albums is still my favorite work by him, and yes, it mostly covers "the standards."

Alan, I do sympathize with you - Kind-of-Blue-style music is not exactly "tune-heavy", and honestly, the Brubeck quartet can be kind of emotionless and glib. They sometimes show heart, but sometimes they are just there to prove a point about musicology.

You might want to look for 30s improvisers who continued to record into the stereo era. Coleman Hawkins is one of my favorite saxophone players - his albums The Hawk Flies High, The Hawk Relaxes, and Coleman Hawkins & Duke Ellington may be just what your doctor ordered. Here he is playing "Mood Indigo" with Duke Ellington:

https://www.youtube.com/v/zJnTe1iG9NI

Also, for piano: Oscar Peterson! The most outgoing, "generous" of jazz pianists, and he has a whole catalog of "Plays the Songbook" albums like The Oscar Peterson Trio Plays the Gershwin Songbook, ...the Harold Arlen Songbook, ...Porgy and Bess, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/v/vSBtyKJwLyI

[king ubu]

You might want to look for 30s improvisers who continued to record into the stereo era. Coleman Hawkins is one of my favorite saxophone players - his albums The Hawk Flies High, The Hawk Relaxes, and Coleman Hawkins & Duke Ellington may be just what your doctor ordered.

Hawkins was the first name that crossed my mind ... there's two things there, though:

1) going post bebop but sticking with "mainstream" (it seems Stanley Dance coined that phrase in the fifties for music that was still harking back to pre-bop - yet not to New Orleans jazz/dixieland/early jazz - but obviously contemporary) ... there are many prime example of this to be found on Verve (check out the albums by Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Johnny Hodges, Roy Eldridge ... favourites include "Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster", "Ben Webster Meets Oscar Peterson", "Sweets" by Harry Edison) ... Oscar Peterson I'd say fits that "mainstream" moniker perfectly - it took me ages to appreciate him beyond his accompanying skills (which still remain somewhat doubtful, take Jimmy Rowles on "Sweets" and compare him to OP on "Hawkins Encounters Webster" or the Webster album with OP ... anyway I'm firmly out of the large OP-hating camp by now) ... OP has a huge discography and tastes differ - but some safe bets would be "At Stratford Shakespearean Theatre" or the live recordings from Chicago's London House if they can be found ... for those that read German, I put this together a few year back:
http://www.gethappymag.de/oscar-peterson

2) Hawkins was one of the few pre-boppers who dug the be-boppers ... and who was able to cope with them at least partly (his strongest rival, Lester Young, was another, and a major influence and that, if not THE major influence) - so instead of looking for lush mainstream albums (of which Hawkins had a long run, in between 1956 and 1962 he hardly made a bad album, and he made many in those years, I guess up to two dozen), you might also try to check out his "transitional" recordings, such as the Capitol sessions (compiled on "Hollywood Stampede") or the Apollo Sessions (compiled on "Rainbow Mist") ... the former documents (somewhat, the producer interferred somewhat as he didn't get bebop) Hawkins' band with Howard McGhee, who was the first bebopper to hit California (a year before Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie got there) ...


On another note, have you tried anything Charlie Parker? Best the Savoy and Dial studio sessions, in whatever form they can be found (once you're hooked, the official 8CD set on Savoy with all the studio recordings would be the best option, but it's likely long OOP and probably not a sane entry point) - I know, this might seem unlogical, but why not try if you haven't?


Another option: stick to the piano players ... musicians such as Barry Harris (try "Preminado"), Tommy Flanagan (not sure about availability ... many good albums around on Enja, Blue Note, Timeless ...) or Hank Jones (again ... availability, the golden age of jazz reissues ended around a decade ago, ever since, it's mostly been European PD cheapo labels) keep the tradition running while being throughly modern ... try going from Art Tatum and Teddy Wilson and Johnny Guarnieri and Nat Cole (almost a bebopper!) to Hank Jones and Tommy Flanagan ... and try Barry Harris, who's a died-in-the-wool bebopper yet his music doesn't have many of those traits that may seem "hectic" or "nervous" to the uninitiated (though I love Bud Powell when he has that burning intensity).


Just some thoughts, not sure if they help, but please report back about any "progress"  (and don't feel bad if you stick with swing/pre-bop, there's so much wonderful music to be heard there!)

[king ubu]

one more option ... instead of tackling the masterworks of modal jazz (i.e. "Kind of Blue") which are several steps away from swing anyway ... try some catchy hard bop classics on Blue Note instead:

Cannonball Adderley - Somethin' Else (Miles dry-runs some of his ideas for "Kind of Blue" here, but the mood is just perfect)
Stanley Turrentine & The Three Sounds - Blues Sounds (a ballad masterpiece, Turrentine on tenor, Gene Harris on piano)
Dexter Gordon - Go (another tenor plus rhythm affair with a perfect rhythm section - Sonny Clark on piano)
Kenny Burrell - Midnight Blue (with Stanley Turrentine again on tenor)
Grant Green - Idle Moments (this goes beyond hardbop some, but again, very moody stuff)
Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder

of course there's much more, and much of it isn't on Blue Note, but these are a few stone classics ... again, not sure about availability, but they were all once part of Blue Note/EMI's "RVG Edition" (RVG being Rudy Van Gelder who initially recorded the sessions and did the remasters ... some of 'em bleeding loud, but the series was nicely presented and I generally enjoyed it ... if you're an audiophile, you need a fat bank account and connections to Japan though, I guess  )

[mc ukrneal]

I was thinking more along the lines of west coast jazz. How about - Lennie Niehaus. Here is a sample:
https://www.youtube.com/v/O-PXgYLr2E0

The improv doesn't strictly adhere to the previous stuff, but I just love the style of this stuff. Probably helps that I've played a lot of it.  I'd probably start with One: Quintet and Octet (though there may be other compilations these days).

Along different lines, Buddy Rich is another who does some really great stuff. Here's one of the albums of his that I like (and a sample):
https://www.youtube.com/v/mE55BAoP8Vo

EDIT: By the way, it's a really hard question to answer, although it is a very simple question. If you can give us some feedback on the names already listed, that would help (whenever you get to them).

I had another name (and particular piece) in mind when I read your question, but he is a bit later than your period and so I hesitated to include him (and not everyone likes him). But Chuck Mangione has a sweet approach that might suit you. Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/v/QIL-nwJfGgg
I played this in high school. As a sax player, you get the 'support parts'. But it came to mind immediately, not because the improv is connected to the theme, but because it seems a natural extension of it (and is in any case a sweet melody on its own). Not all his pieces are like this, but there are pieces he does that I can play over and over and over. This is one of them. Great album too.

[king ubu]

West Coast crossed my mind, too ... Shorty Rogers for instance should do the trick. The mid-sized ensembles shaped after Miles Davis' "Birth of the Cool". There are sessions led by Gerry Mulligan, too, that are maybe even better.

I love those Niehaus albums, too - but still, they'd not exist without Bird (or: Niehaus wouldn't) - the whole West Coast thing remains somewhat ambiguous ... the best of it (Jimmy Giuffre!) remained without consequence, in other places (Shelly Manne) after years of experimentation (some great, some less so, there are also some nice enough but not great piano trio albums with one Andre Previn on piano) things turned back "mainstream" (and yet yielded amazing results: "Shelly Manne at the Black Hawk" and "At Shelly's Manne Hole"!) ... the black jazz that tried to salvage what was left of the booming Central Avenue scene of the forties (war industry, Hollywood booming, entertainment non-stop) was moved to the fringes in the fifties and wasn't adequately documented (i.e. the big bands of Roy Porter or Gerald Wilson, though the later fared better, eventually) ... but by the late fifties/early sixties, some great music by the likes of Hampton Hawes, Teddy Edwards, Harold Land, Curtis Amy, Curtis Counce and others was recorded.


Following the big bands might be another option ... though I'd skip the gound-breaking one led by Dizzy Gillespie in the late forties for starters (it's amazing, but it's not easy to adjust to for swing-era attuned ears I reckon) ... outfits such as Thad Jones/Mel Lewis, Kenny Clarke/Francy Boland (operating in Europe but co-leader Clarke wasn't the only expat involved: Johnny Griffin, Sahib Shihab, Benny Bailey, Idrees Sulieman or Art Farmer were involved, too) or the late sixties big band by Buddy Rich continued the tradition ... so did Woody Herman who led an amazing band in the early sixties (there are some great albums on Philips).

And of course, there's always Duke Ellington, who inhabited his own world of sounds - he was modern and he was not, he didn't need to adjust to anything as it was all there in his music, one way or the other ... love his music, from the late twenties right to the end!

[Brian]

Cannonball Adderley - Somethin' Else (Miles dry-runs some of his ideas for "Kind of Blue" here, but the mood is just perfect)

I love Cannonball - my favorite sax player, period - but he might be "the next next step" for Alan. As expressive and soulful as his ballads are, he and some of the other "hard bop" names (Lee Morgan etc.) might be outside of his comfort zone right now. Hard bop would be easier for him to adapt to than the middle-period Miles Davis style, but the improvisations do become far freer and more separate from the melodies...

Still, I'll leave a Cannonball tune or two here for Alan to try on for size!

http://www.youtube.com/v/zJ5KtOOaKUM

http://www.youtube.com/v/MmwsQ_dHrFM

[Brian]

If I may expand on this comment

I need to find jazz where the improvisational noodling can easily be recognised to be derived from a recognisable tune.

Thelonious Monk was a bit bonkers, and his musical style embraces a LOT of dissonance, zany harmonies, and what sounds to the newcomer's ear like really, really sloppy playing. But he is EXCELLENT at maintaining a very consistent connection to the original tune. No matter how crazy Monk gets, you can quickly recognize, hey, that's only 1-2 steps removed from where he started!

Example:

http://www.youtube.com/v/O7D3TGk2rhw

Another - and harmonically much more old-fashioned, even though it was recorded in the 1990s - solo number that I think does a PHENOMENAL job of

jazz where the improvisational noodling can easily be recognised to be derived from a recognisable tune.

is Lionel Hampton's take on the classic song "Lover". This is so strict, but so liberated, it almost sounds like a Beethoven theme-and-variations to me. Hampton sticks to the structure of the melody, and repeats it, but each time, it's transmogrified.

http://www.youtube.com/v/9OW_S3Qmy54

[James]

May I throw myself on the mercy of the wise jazz folk here, and ask for help?

For a long time jazz was a closed book to me, until I discovered 30s and 40s swing. Benny Goodman rocks. I love those female vocalists of the period: Annette Hanshaw, Helen Ward, Anita O'Day - you know the sort of thing.

Now I've been perfectly capable of finding my way around that swing era, and there's a lot I still haven't explored. But whenever I try to move out of it, I hit a brick wall. Seeking advice from a jazz enthusiast I bought Kind of Blue, on the grounds that since it was the best-selling jazz album of all time, I ought to find it accessible. I just couldn't cope with it. Couldn't hear any tunes, found the very sound of it annoying. I haven't given up on it: I give it another try about once a year, but have made zero progress. Alright then, how about Brubeck: I could remember 'Take Five' from when it was a hit, and that had lots of melody in it. I bought a couple of Brubeck albums, and just got stuck. Somewhat more approachable, yes, sometimes - but an awful lot of the time I might as well have been listening to scale exercises, for all the effect it had on me.

So here's my question. Clearly I need pointing towards some really easy jazz, from the 1950s onwards. I need to find jazz where the improvisational noodling can easily be recognised to be derived from a recognisable tune. Can anyone please make some recommendations? I don't mind being thought a numbskull, if only I can find some more jazz that I'm capable of enjoying.

Jazz was so much better before boring old bop came along. And modal music can get quite meandering & dull after awhile. Explore Jazz Singers. Explore Big Bands that incorporate a certain classical romanticism and imaginative sophistication, or the very hard swinging ones! Or even recordings where players are within more orchestral/string settings. Like Bird with Strings, Miles/Evans collabs, Getz's Focus, Brecker/Ogerman Cityscape .. Post that .. try some colorful & eclectic electric jazz since I remember you liking electronic music. Listen to jazz musicians embrace & harness it among other things! Try for instance .. Herbie Hancock's Head Hunters. Jan Hammer's The First Seven Days. Weather Report's Heavy Weather. Mahavishnu Orchestra's Birds of Fire. Return to Forever's Light as a Feather. Billy Cobham's Spectrum. George Benson's Breezin'. Tony William's Lifetime Believe It!. Brecker Brother's Detente. Miles Davis's Decoy. The Chick Corea Elektric Band, self-titled 1986. Wayne Shorter, Atlantis & Joy Rider. Tribal Tech, self titled 1991. All quite good, many very great!

[Mirror Image]

Jazz was so much better before boring old bop came along.

You really have no clue as to what you're even talking about and the quote above is only further proof of this notion.

[Elgarian]

Gosh, thanks everyone. I come in here this morning expecting one or two suggestions and here is a real plateful. I can't say anything sensible in response, and won't be able to for some while, because there's just so much here to try. I'll leave a tiddley trail of comments as I move along.

I think the shock was the brick wall. After finding myself enjoying the early swing stuff so much, and so effortlessly, it seemed astonishing that the next step forward was ... well, not a next step at all, but just a bruised nose. I did try an Ellington CD but have never warmed to it (but reading Scarp's comment, I'd better check the date of that). I've heard a bit of Oscar Peterson, and didn't follow it up, but there might well be some mileage there. What worries me a bit is that I might end up discovering that my taste is for some sort of jazz mood easy listening musak! I reassure myself that my classical listening never tended that way, so why should this?

Thanks to one and all, for all these suggestions.

[Elgarian]

Also, for piano: Oscar Peterson! The most outgoing, "generous" of jazz pianists, and he has a whole catalog of "Plays the Songbook" albums like The Oscar Peterson Trio Plays the Gershwin Songbook, ...the Harold Arlen Songbook, ...Porgy and Bess, etc.

Listening to the youtube you posted ... Oh this is really promising. Thanks Brian - I think you've really nudged me onto something here. This is the sort of noodling I can handle!!! And such fabulous tunes, too.

I'm off to see if I can find some cheap Peterson on Amazon ....

[Elgarian]

For heaven's sake, look at this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Songbooks-Original-Albums-Bonus-Tracks/dp/B00LWTETNC/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1450778330&sr=1-4&keywords=oscar+peterson

£12.50 for the whole set of songbooks on 10 CDs. I mean ... has the world run mad? CLICK!

I've remembered how I've heard Peterson before - he made an album with the bedazzling Anita O'Day (I have almost everything she ever did), but I was so focused on Anita at the time that I didn't stop to think about the Peterson side of it.

[king ubu]

The O'Day/OP album is great! A fight of two virtuosos trying to out-do each other constantly ... yet it yields wonderful results!

Re: Ellington, did you ever try the 1940 band, the so-called Blanton/Webster band (because of the presence of short-lived bassist Jimmie Blanton and Ben Webster)? There was a three disc set (and a remaster thereof) on RCA with their most important studio recordings, and there's a two disc set of a live concert from Fargo, which is plain amazing.

Also, be aware that these type of cheapo boxes may sound like crap. I've had the Bechet from this series and it seemed at least in part (I only checked parts) to be MP3-sourced, sounded dull and muffled ... and somewhere in the most remote corner of my shelves is the Lionel Hampton set, which is a huge mess and contains only 30 minutes of music per disc ... that's all Membran, who do some reasonably good classical releases, but jazz-wise, they're offering crap for crap money (which sometimes is the way to go, but you need to be aware).

This includes the Quadromania 4CD set, these "wallet" boxes (which come with no info at all usually, just cardboard sleeves with tracklists), as well as a series of digipacks called "Original Longplay Albums". They pretend, but they're not. (That is, they contain the original music of course, but they're not serious reissues at all.)

[Elgarian]

Thanks for the warnings - yes, once I started looking further I was beginning to see I ought to be more circumspect and do my research more carefully ...

Slowly does it.

[Karl Henning]

(* reads with interest *)

[James]

Thanks to one and all, for all these suggestions.

Not a problem. Happy Exploring.

[king ubu]

Thanks for the warnings - yes, once I started looking further I was beginning to see I ought to be more circumspect and do my research more carefully ...

Slowly does it.

Membran is Documents ... used to be TIM Music or something. You can just never tell, i.e. their Artie Shaw "wallet" box is pretty nice, contains most of his run of "Chronological Classics", the French label that put together master takes by so many greats of early jazz.

There are so many labels nowadays in PD business, and many of their releases look pretty nice (they kinda got professional doing layouts and stuff by now), seems after change of laws, 1962 will remain the threshold for PD material, but as that includes most of the classics of hard bop by now ... on the other hand, the majors have stopped their jazz programmes almost entirely, so if you're new in the game, you have to either look for Japanese reissues (many Atlantic albums for instance are around in 1000 yen series, cdjapan.co.jp will carry them, some Blue Notes are still around, too, there's also an Impulse series, not sure it's still on-going ... the downside is, Japanese market seems to treat CDs the way we treat magazines, so you buy what's at the newsstand and a month later, the goods have changed ... so you have to act fast often).

So, Sony has even stopped their Ellington series around 2004 - not lucrative enough, I guess. Jazz markets are just a small percentage of classical, so for money-grabbing companies that do have to pay royalties (and store and preserver master tapes etc9, I guess it's not worth it, while for PD labels operating out of Europe, it's still worth it.

www.jazzmessengers.com is a great store for buying over in Europe, they carry loads of good, small labels (also ones documenting contemporary jazz, such as Intakt, Pi Recordings etc.), but they also have all the PD stuff (labels such as American Jazz Classics, Pollwinner Records, Lonehill, Jazz Lips, Jazz Beat, Jazz Track, Definitive/Jazz Factory etc. etc.). Also, if you're prone to buy vinyl, there's plenty of crap around there, too (Jazz Wax for instance).

Fresh Sound, btw, is definitely standing out of the bunch of PD labels ... they do some great projects now and then (lately for instance the Keynote Jazz box, which should be very very much down your alley! alas it's master takes only ... also the Felsted Mainstream box, again should be to your liking! of this, there's another edition by another of those labels, Domino, Solar? same contents but somewhat less nice presentation) and they also do their own new recordings (in the nineties they did ones with lots of veterans, including forgotten legends such as Curtis Amy) ... anyway, their compilations often combine the wide-spread with the rare, so too often I don't buy because I'm pissed by that practice, but if you're new in the game, many of their compilations would be great (and soundwise they're decent to good, at least if you're not an audiophile). But I have plenty of their releases around here as well (including many West Coast Jazz ones, that's label boss Jordi Pujol's special area of expertise).