Where to go next?

[James]

Few other recs .. Nancy Wilson/Cannonball Adderley (1961), Frank Sinatra & Count Basie, Sinatra at the Sands, The Tony Bennett/Bill Evans Album .. Jaco Pastorius's self titled 1976, etc.

[Brian]

As far as ultra cheap repackaging labels go, Real Gone Jazz is my go-to: they have an enormous range of 3/4 CD boxes of artists out of UK copyright, and they generally do well by them. I own something like 10 of their collections, and only the Harry "Sweets" Edison one has notably bad sound quality from bad transfers.

Caveat: mostly I play jazz in the car, not on a classy home stereo.

[Parsifal]

I have a bunch of those Real Gone Jazz compilation boxes. They are fine, except I find that the way that they lump everything together makes it hard to distinguish one album from another. I end up getting more out of it if I get individual album releases, even though the cost is less advantageous.

For Ellington, I would regard this as one of the classic recordings from his golden period (up to 1941)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7CVOZurEik

One thing I find interesting about Ellington is the way he uses a "big band." It similar to what people sometimes say about Mahler, that he writes orchestral music with chamber music textures.

I was also thinking of suggesting Coleman Hawkins, but I find his post 1940 work a pale shadow of the work from his early career.

[king ubu]

I loathe Real Gone Jazz ... but I guess yeah, if you want to get your feet wet and not spend a fortune, that's one way to go

I was also thinking of suggesting Coleman Hawkins, but I find his post 1940 work a pale shadow of the work from his early career.

Seriously now? Have you heard the Signature sessions? The Keynotes? The Apollo ones? The Capitol sessions? All of it as good as it gets!

Early fifties wasn't Hawkins' best period then, he didn't play for kills often in those years, recorded some rather drab stuff ... but by 1954 when he did his Jazztone date, he was back in shape and started chugging out an amazing series of albums, including "The Genius of Coleman Hawkins", "Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster", "The Hawk Flies High", "At the Opera House" (co-led with Roy Eldridge), "Soul", "Hawk Eyes", "Night Hawk" (with Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis), and some lovely ballad albums, too ("At Ease", "The Hawk Relaxes", and album with the Red Garland trio) ... 1962 was his last prime year I think, resulting in "Alive! At the Village Gate" (two albums, his regular combo of that year with Tommy Flanagan, plus guests Roy Eldridge and Johnny Hodges on some of it), and "Today and Now" on Impulse (his encounter with Ellington on Impulse has been mentioned, it's wonderful, his two other albums on the label aren't as good, but the bossa nova one is nice enough for sure). He also delivered amazing performances on Tiny Grimes' "Blues Groove" and on the encounter with Sonny Rollins. And I'm sure I forgot some more that's worthwhile ... in addition, there are looser jams with the likes of Joe Thomas, Vic Dickenson, a pair of albums with Broadway tunes with Flanagan etc.

[Brian]

Early fifties wasn't Hawkins' best period then, he didn't play for kills often in those years, recorded some rather drab stuff ... but by 1954 when he did his Jazztone date, he was back in shape and started chugging out an amazing series of albums, including "The Genius of Coleman Hawkins", "Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster", "The Hawk Flies High", "At the Opera House" (co-led with Roy Eldridge), "Soul", "Hawk Eyes", "Night Hawk" (with Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis), and some lovely ballad albums, too ("At Ease", "The Hawk Relaxes", and album with the Red Garland trio)

1. I didn't know about that Red Garland album! I need it.
2. The Red Garland Trio would be a GREAT choice for Alan. Music that I've sometimes thought was oversimple and easygoing, but hey, that may well be up his alley. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/2fj0Qu8d864

[Parsifal]

I loathe Real Gone Jazz ... but I guess yeah, if you want to get your feet wet and not spend a fortune, that's one way to go
Seriously now? Have you heard the Signature sessions? The Keynotes? The Apollo ones? The Capitol sessions? All of it as good as it gets!

Early fifties wasn't Hawkins' best period then, he didn't play for kills often in those years, recorded some rather drab stuff ... but by 1954 when he did his Jazztone date, he was back in shape and started chugging out an amazing series of albums, including "The Genius of Coleman Hawkins", "Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster", "The Hawk Flies High", "At the Opera House" (co-led with Roy Eldridge), "Soul", "Hawk Eyes", "Night Hawk" (with Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis), and some lovely ballad albums, too ("At Ease", "The Hawk Relaxes", and album with the Red Garland trio) ... 1962 was his last prime year I think, resulting in "Alive! At the Village Gate" (two albums, his regular combo of that year with Tommy Flanagan, plus guests Roy Eldridge and Johnny Hodges on some of it), and "Today and Now" on Impulse (his encounter with Ellington on Impulse has been mentioned, it's wonderful, his two other albums on the label aren't as good, but the bossa nova one is nice enough for sure). He also delivered amazing performances on Tiny Grimes' "Blues Groove" and on the encounter with Sonny Rollins. And I'm sure I forgot some more that's worthwhile ... in addition, there are looser jams with the likes of Joe Thomas, Vic Dickenson, a pair of albums with Broadway tunes with Flanagan etc.

I will have to look into it further.  I have the reviled Real Gone Jazz collection and my brain rebels when the sappy strings appear in the later tracks.

Note Added: Listening to "The Hawk Flies High" (on the Real Gone compilation) and it is quite good. I never got past the god-awful (IMO) "The Hawk in Hi-Fi" which opens the collection.  And just noticed that the tracks are scrambled on this release. Really lousy production job by Real Gone Jazz.

[king ubu]

@Scarpia: yeah, those mid-fifties overproduced albums ("The Hawk in Paris" and "The Hawk in Hi-Fi") aren't my favourites either ... both on RCA which kinda did their own domesticized version of jazz in those years (keeping tunes and solo short, arrangements tights, no risk, often quite little fun) ... but there's so much more, don't let those lead you to quick conflusions! (And they have their merits, I guess, but it took me a long time to get there)

2. The Red Garland Trio would be a GREAT choice for Alan. Music that I've sometimes thought was oversimple and easygoing, but hey, that may well be up his alley. 

agreed - anything with Garland/Paul Chambers/Art Taylor is a safe bet I'd say, but there are so many albums, the double disc edition with the complete "Prelude" live material is terrific, too, but it's hard to give definitive recommendations - one I'll give without double-guessing my own choice though is "Red Garland's Piano", with a long, slow and blues take of Percy Mayfield's glorious "Please Send Me Someone to Love" - jazz has rarely been so sexy!

[jochanaan]

Count Basie is also a good "next step"; still recognizably linked to swing, but foreshadowing bop.  Let's just say I never heard a Basie recording I haven't liked.

[Elgarian]

The Red Garland Trio would be a GREAT choice for Alan. Music that I've sometimes thought was oversimple and easygoing, but hey, that may well be up his alley. 

Oddly enough Brian, that doesn't sound simple and easy-going, to me. It sounds like (to coin a phrase) 'too many notes'. A bit rushed. I want them to slow down.

I wonder if it would help if I added to what I've previously said by explaining that my very, very favourites tend to be slow, moody pieces. My perfect jazz album would be an album exploring tunes like 'Moonglow', 'Memories of you', 'Smoke gets in your eyes', 'I apologise', 'Bewitched, bothered and bewlidered', 'Body and soul' ... My ears prick up at the mention of the existence of a Hawkins album mentioned above called 'At Ease' ...

I'm not saying that's all I like, not by any means. (I love the particular way Helen Ward's up tempo singing swings, for instance.) But that's the stuff that moves me most.

[Parsifal]

Duke's "Mighty Like the Blues (my link above) doesn't fit the bill?

[Elgarian]

Duke's "Mighty Like the Blues (my link above) doesn't fit the bill?

It does, pretty well, Scarps, and thank you. But (forgive me if in my ignorance I'm missing something significant) it's pretty similar to the kind of stuff I'm already familiar with. I'm not looking for 'more of the same', but moving out of that era into newer kinds of jazz, yet without descending into the tuneless noodling that turns me off. I guess I won't know what I'm looking for till I find it, but Peterson seems like the right direction.

[James]

yet without descending into the tuneless noodling that turns me off.

This is how it may sound to you but that has more to do with your level of listening and ability to follow a soloist/group alter/develop musical materials. I don't know what you've heard, but often with the widely known ones, "tuneless noodling" certainly isn't what is going on. They are often working within song forms and harmonic frameworks.

[Karl Henning]

It does, pretty well, Scarps, and thank you. But (forgive me if in my ignorance I'm missing something significant) it's pretty similar to the kind of stuff I'm already familiar with.

Aye, you've set us a bit of a poser.  And of course, the process itself is good fun.

[Brian]

Oscar Peterson does a lot of noodling! Possibly the world record for noodling! But it is after all tuneful noodling...



Of course we all know Alan's intentions are good, but "tuneless noodling" does sound a bit like "atonal honking" 

[Karl Henning]

Hah!

[Karl Henning]

I'll embrace the parenthesis to share this.  (Which may not really be Where to go next . . . .)

[Parsifal]

It does, pretty well, Scarps, and thank you. But (forgive me if in my ignorance I'm missing something significant) it's pretty similar to the kind of stuff I'm already familiar with. I'm not looking for 'more of the same', but moving out of that era into newer kinds of jazz, yet without descending into the tuneless noodling that turns me off. I guess I won't know what I'm looking for till I find it, but Peterson seems like the right direction.

I guess I think of Ellington as being in his own category.  For something really different I've come to appreciate late Coleman Hawkins more since reading this thread. Another name I might toss out is Sonny Rollins. I like his work in the 50's. Compared to other "hard bop" performers I think he focuses more on melodic development, which I think you might find attractive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcOnhR5zkXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA2XIWZxMKM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIlpEnsa2d8
 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Ellington still had it later in his career - I don't understand the snubbing - it's just that the music isn't as frequently "dance-centered". Experimentation is the name of the game. Some of his late suites are full of inventive/introvert/moody stretches butted up against swing moments.

The suite from The River from 1970:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59qgL6ruW8M

The Toot Suite from 1959 is one of my faves (part 1 here):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOvV2Sx9Dw

The suite written for the 1967 British play The Jaywalker (Policia is a hoot!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUyH7OTwSrk&list=PLL7h86fKhGSgucrb0TbU3VfmBCS18F21F&index=14

The Degas Suite from 1968:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJfsbnh9N78

[Elgarian]

Oscar Peterson does a lot of noodling! Possibly the world record for noodling! But it is after all tuneful noodling...

Of course we all know Alan's intentions are good, but "tuneless noodling" does sound a bit like "atonal honking" 

It is so easy to get into a tangle of misinterpretation! Everything I'm saying here is arising from my own limitations as a jazz listener (James very generously points this out for me, but I have long been well aware of it). My term 'tuneless noodling' is a purely subjective one. It describes what I hear. What I mean is that I can't discern any relationship between the melody we started with and what I'm hearing now. I'm not saying there is no such relationship. In fact I'm darn sure there is one! But here, from where I sit, unable to hear it for myself, there may as well not be one.

Now, listening to and exploring the world of swing has been sheer delight. It hasn't been 'difficult'. It's been thrilling. I think, from what I've heard so far, that Oscar Peterson is going to take me a significant stride forwards, and it sounds different to what I'm used to, but not difficult. I don't want 'difficult' - I have difficulties a-plenty in all sorts of other areas, both musical and non-musical, and beating my head against brick walls labelled 'Miles Davis' and 'Dave Brubeck' really hasn't been fun and I don't want any more of it. I am certain that it's wonderful music but it just isn't for me. I haven't enjoyed it, and haven't learned anything from it.

So my expression 'tuneless noodling' isn't a term of abuse or adverse criticism. It's a description of what these ears of mine sometimes hear. I hear noodling. I do not hear any trace of tune. That's all I'm sayin'.

[Elgarian]

These are clearly your limitations as a listener, the ears certainly need work my friend. If you can follow all kinds of classical music which makes greater demands on ears, and you can hear melody in all it's guises, and simply feel rhythm/pulse/swing/groove .. then jazz (largely homophonic, simple song-form) should be a total piece of cake. It's hard to believe that an ultra-simple, stripped down, ballad oriented recording like Kind of Blue would pose any problems, or that one could not decipher it's lyricism & musicality. Especially to seasoned classical listeners.

This post is so helpful, so open-hearted, so full of sensitivity to the problems faced by those of us who struggle to achieve enlightenment, and it offers such generously-spirited practical advice, that I have highlighted it so that other fellow strugglers who pass this way may read it more clearly, and benefit from its wisdom.