Where to go next?

Started by Elgarian, December 21, 2015, 01:12:12 PM

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Elgarian

Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2015, 04:50:21 AM
I'll embrace the parenthesis to share this.  (Which may not really be Where to go next . . . .)

Maybe not 'where to go next' exactly, but perhaps 'where to go the next after next', Karl? I'm listening for the third time as I write this, and finding it not altogether inaccessible, albeit a bit further down the road from Benny Goodman ....

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on December 23, 2015, 08:33:54 AM
I guess I think of Ellington as being in his own category.  For something really different I've come to appreciate late Coleman Hawkins more since reading this thread. Another name I might toss out is Sonny Rollins. I like his work in the 50's. Compared to other "hard bop" performers I think he focuses more on melodic development, which I think you might find attractive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcOnhR5zkXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA2XIWZxMKM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIlpEnsa2d8


Listening to the first of these links now Scarps, and yes, I see what you mean about the clarity of the melodic development - there are (mostly) enough little (or big) reminders of where we started, and that is very much the kind of thing I both need and like!! It's not completely alien territory because Anita O'Day carried me some way into bebop, and I was pretty much willing for her to drag me anywhere .... Onto the third link now. This is promising. Thanks for the introduction.

Elgarian

Quote from: jochanaan on December 22, 2015, 04:10:13 PM
Count Basie is also a good "next step"; still recognizably linked to swing, but foreshadowing bop.  Let's just say I never heard a Basie recording I haven't liked. ;D

Listening to some Basie now - thanks for this suggestion. The 40s material is very much my territory, but I'm thinking if I nudge my way into (say) his later work it might be a good way to go. Just listening now to a concert from 1962 which is certainly very approachable.

I'm getting a useful list: Peterson, Basie for sure, Rollins possibly, Hawkins maybe ... Plenty here for me to get going with, without drowning. Many thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

Dax

Quote from: Elgarian on December 21, 2015, 01:12:12 PM
So here's my question. Clearly I need pointing towards some really easy jazz, from the 1950s onwards. I need to find jazz where the improvisational noodling can easily be recognised to be derived from a recognisable tune. Can anyone please make some recommendations? I don't mind being thought a numbskull, if only I can find some more jazz that I'm capable of enjoying.

One album which immediately comes to mind is Intermodulation with Bill Evans and Jim Hall. They're rather more sophisticated than mere noodlers, of course. My man's gone now particularly recommended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8NotclRDtc

Elgarian

#44
Quote from: James on December 24, 2015, 05:24:46 AM
I'm here for you buddy .. anything ..

I know that. You're here for all of us, bless you. Merry Christmas.

Parsifal

#45
Quote from: Elgarian on December 24, 2015, 01:39:31 AM
Listening to the first of these links now Scarps, and yes, I see what you mean about the clarity of the melodic development - there are (mostly) enough little (or big) reminders of where we started, and that is very much the kind of thing I both need and like!! It's not completely alien territory because Anita O'Day carried me some way into bebop, and I was pretty much willing for her to drag me anywhere .... Onto the third link now. This is promising. Thanks for the introduction.

Glad you liked it. In retrospect, I think the Sonny Rollins track I've linked below is perhaps the best example of melodic development, although the song, Blue Seven, doesn't have a melody as such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59aXJ8GvMYE

Variations on a nonexistent theme. Sort of like the Enigma Variations, no?

To venture into philosophy, you shouldn't be disturbed by your inability to "get" the aimless noodling at first exposure. By your own account it took decades to "get" Elgar's violin sonata, no?

Karl Henning

Quote from: Elgarian on December 24, 2015, 01:17:59 AM
Maybe not 'where to go next' exactly, but perhaps 'where to go the next after next', Karl? I'm listening for the third time as I write this, and finding it not altogether inaccessible, albeit a bit further down the road from Benny Goodman ....

Thank you, sir.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Elgarian on December 23, 2015, 12:20:44 PM
It is so easy to get into a tangle of misinterpretation! Everything I'm saying here is arising from my own limitations as a jazz listener (James very generously points this out for me, but I have long been well aware of it). My term 'tuneless noodling' is a purely subjective one. It describes what I hear. What I mean is that I can't discern any relationship between the melody we started with and what I'm hearing now. I'm not saying there is no such relationship. In fact I'm darn sure there is one! But here, from where I sit, unable to hear it for myself, there may as well not be one.

Now, listening to and exploring the world of swing has been sheer delight. It hasn't been 'difficult'. It's been thrilling. I think, from what I've heard so far, that Oscar Peterson is going to take me a significant stride forwards, and it sounds different to what I'm used to, but not difficult. I don't want 'difficult' - I have difficulties a-plenty in all sorts of other areas, both musical and non-musical, and beating my head against brick walls labelled 'Miles Davis' and 'Dave Brubeck' really hasn't been fun and I don't want any more of it. I am certain that it's wonderful music but it just isn't for me. I haven't enjoyed it, and haven't learned anything from it.

So my expression 'tuneless noodling' isn't a term of abuse or adverse criticism. It's a description of what these ears of mine sometimes hear. I hear noodling. I do not hear any trace of tune. That's all I'm sayin'.
I think you'd benefit from hearing a little about people talk about improv. It may help you understand what you are hearing better. For example, here is a short discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/v/oVvF7S2hW5U

This one shows some nice elements of how the improvisation is created (with a tune you probably know, which helps, and then I thought you might like how he plays some samples at speed and then slows them down - I find that type of thing very helpful). The scale stuff may be a bit of a slog, but if you get to the example after them, you might find that of interest:
https://www.youtube.com/v/vQOa1q8QL6o

Anyway, others may have some better examples - in fact, I hope they do! :)
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

James

Quote from: Scarpia on December 24, 2015, 09:45:45 AM
Glad you liked it. In retrospect, I think the Sonny Rollins track I've linked below is perhaps the best example of melodic development, although the song, Blue Seven, doesn't have a melody as such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59aXJ8GvMYE

Variations on a nonexistent theme. Sort of like the Enigma Variations, no?

To venture into philosophy, you shouldn't be disturbed by your inability to "get" the aimless noodling at first exposure. By your own account it took decades to "get" Elgar's violin sonata, no?

And keep in mind, that thematic development is just one type of approach, there are many .. Charlie Parker would be the opposite of Sonny. Yet, just as brilliant as a soloist/improviser.

I think Elgarian would love Bird with Strings. I hope he gives it a try.
Action is the only truth

James

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 24, 2015, 10:47:41 AM
I think you'd benefit from hearing a little about people talk about improv.

Yea, the improvisers .. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, Rach, Scriabin, Shankar, Miles, Trane etc. .. .
Action is the only truth

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on December 24, 2015, 09:45:45 AM
To venture into philosophy, you shouldn't be disturbed by your inability to "get" the aimless noodling at first exposure. By your own account it took decades to "get" Elgar's violin sonata, no?

I should make it clear that I'm not disturbed by 'not getting' the noodling (and please let me stress again that I know it's not 'noodling' - it just sounds like that to me). I'm quite content that there're huge swathes of jazz that I will probably never be able to enjoy. My problem is trying to find the bits I can enjoy, and that's where this thread has already helped me a lot. The other point is that I really don't want to hack away at the jazz I find difficult. I've done quite a lot of that: it gets me nowhere and I don't enjoy it.

The Elgar was a very different kettle of fish: it was the violin concerto, not the sonata, and despite my relatively lukewarm response to it for many years, it was constantly intriguing me, drawing me in, inviting another listen. I felt as if I was floundering for a long time, but it was intriguing, not repellent.

It's very difficult trying to explain one's problems with certain kinds of music and be sure of being understood. I remember you and I once discussing Solti's Ring, and neither of us able to understand the other's take on it. Sometimes words won't do the job we require of them!

jochanaan

Quote from: Elgarian on December 24, 2015, 01:36:04 PM
...Sometimes words won't do the job we require of them!
Well, if they did, there might be no need for music. :laugh:

If you don't like something, there's no need for you to stress about it.  Lots of us don't like lots of things. :)  And given the preferences you have expressed here, you might want to avoid Pharaoh Sanders, Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman, and Rahsaan Roland Kirk, at least for now.  They were definitely experimenters who didn't merely push boundaries but obliterated them. 8)

Have you thought about going the other way, into earlier jazz or Dixieland?  Early Louis Armstrong, Bix Beiderbecke, Sidney Bechet, and others from around that time?  There's lots of fun things happening, and you will be able to see how they influenced the Big Bands, especially if you can tolerate "historical sound." :)
Imagination + discipline = creativity

James

Quote from: Elgarian on December 24, 2015, 01:36:04 PMThe other point is that I really don't want to hack away at the jazz I find difficult.

Jazz truly difficult to well-versed ears? Never. Seriously.
Action is the only truth

mc ukrneal

#53
Just thought of another, but it is sort of a one time thing (although there is a non-vocals Ballads album): John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman. You might like it. You can sample here:
https://www.youtube.com/v/e4CtnaHRBVI

PS: And while we are on Coltrane, who gets away from what I think you would enjoy as he goes on, there is a great album called My Favorite Things, which is based on songs you probably know (not sure you will like the whole album, but the first song is just marvelous).
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Artem

That is a great album and may fit well with the topic of this discussion.

Personally, I highly support the idea of turning once attention to piano based jazz. For example, several albums by Bill Evans were very helpful for me in broadening my tastes in jazz. I would suggest listening to the following albums by Bill Evans: Portrait in Jazz and The Tony Bennett / Bill Evans Album.

Elgarian

Quote from: jochanaan on December 24, 2015, 04:02:31 PM
If you don't like something, there's no need for you to stress about it.

No no, really, truly, I am not stressed about it, not at all (though I could become stressed about having to explain that I'm not stressed about it ...). I simply don't care about discarding the kind of jazz I've not been able to enjoy, except in so far as I've wasted time listening to it, and want to avoid wasting more, if I can. I'm not trying to like stuff I don't like. I'm trying to find stuff I do like, and like as easily, and as much, as I like 30s/40s swing.

The situation is this:

1. I love lots and lots of 30s/40s swing. Really love it.
2. I felt sure that there was more recent jazz that I could also fall in love with, just as easily, but haven't been able to find much of it, on my own.
3. I now have a growing shortlist, thanks to the suggestions and examples provided by my more knowledgeable chums here, of some promising candidates. This is smashing, and just what I wanted. My thanks to all.


king ubu

Quote from: Elgarian on December 24, 2015, 01:59:12 AM
Listening to some Basie now - thanks for this suggestion. The 40s material is very much my territory, but I'm thinking if I nudge my way into (say) his later work it might be a good way to go. Just listening now to a concert from 1962 which is certainly very approachable.

I'm getting a useful list: Peterson, Basie for sure, Rollins possibly, Hawkins maybe ... Plenty here for me to get going with, without drowning. Many thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

Of course with Basie you'll stay firmly in swing territory ... Pres was a major (the major) influence on bebop, but Basie never quite felt at ease with anything really modern.

There are basically two eras with Basie, from 1936 onwards he led the so-called "Old Testament" band with its amazing "all American rhythm section" that re-defined jazz and swing in a way (Basie on piano, Freddie Green on acoustic guitar, the great Walter Page on bass and Jo Jones on drums - that's "Papa Jo", as opposed to the younger "Philly" Joe Jones who played with Miles Davis in the fifties). That band was mostly a bunch of great improvisers - Buck Clayton, Harry "Sweets" Edison, Lester Young, Herschel Evans, Bennie Morton, Dicky Wells ... they relied muchly on so-called "head arrangements" (ones more or less made up on the spot by the band and then developped further), a few years in, they got more arrangements proper but kept their loose spirit alive very much, at least as long as Pres was on board (that's Lester Young, dubbed by Billie Holiday as "Pres" or "Prez", because he reigned the tenor saxophone ... he dubbed her "Lady Day", and I think "Sweets" was a nickname of his making as well).

In the forties, the band went on a slow downward slope (Pres re-joined for a lengthy stay in 1944), the RCA recordings from 1947-50 aren't bad really, but still a low-point. In 1950, economic reasons forced Basie to disband (Ellington was one of the few who could keep his big band running through the drab post-war years and through the musical revolution of bop) and he led an octet that had some boppish leanings - amongst the members were Clark Terry, Buddy de Franco, Charlie Rouse, Serge Chaloff and most notably Wardell Gray (he'd been a member of the big band before, too) - who made some amazing boppish recordings (outside the Basie realm) but was somehow a phenomenon in that he might have been one of the first modern players to really create a sort of "mainstream", incorporating the smooth flow of swing with all the frantics and new ways of interpreting chords and stuff that bop brought along.

Basie founded his new band (the "new testament") in late 1951 and made a first session for Columbia (the label he'd been recording for from 1939 to 1946 and again with the Octet). Then he switched to Norman Granz (Norgran/Clef/Verve records) and the band really started to kick in. However, this time, it firmly relayed on arrangements by the likes of Ernie Wilkins, Neal Hefti, and a bit later Frank Foster, Thad Jones and others. It turned into an explosive band and got an additional boost once Sonny Payne took over the drum chair from the (musically superior Gus Johnson). It's most famous album is quite certainly this one here:

[asin]B000005GX2[/asin]
The new band featured plenty of great soloists as well, but it was a much tighter affair. Included in its rank were, as the years went by: Joe Newman (who'd been with Basie in the forties already), Thad Jones, Al Grey, Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis (who can be heard to great advantage on the above album), Paul Quinichette (aka "Vice Pres", he based his style firmly on later Pres), Frank Wess, Frank Foster, Billy Mitchell and several other great musicians. The band was on top of its game for around a decade, switched from Granz to the mobsters at Roulette/Roost (associated with Basie's New York home, the Birdland) in 1956. With Joe Williams, Basie had one of the best band singers around, too (and he teamed up with the likes of
But in the end of the decade, some key members had left and again, the music remained good mostly, but not exceptional. Several of the younger guys, notably Thad Jones and Frank Foster, had wanted to bring in more modern arrangements, but Basie rarely had the band play them, even if they might have been recorded and released on records. Thad Jones left to form his own, terrific big band with drummer Mel Lewis (and sidemen such as Joe Farrell, Bob Brookmeyer, Pepper Adams, Jerome Richardson, Richard Davis, Roland Hanna, Richard Williams), while Foster was to lead his own big band as well, eventually recording a masterpiece with "The Loud Minority" in the early seventies.

Basie went on to make many a record, including some favourites in this house (the Bond-themed album on United Artists with some more explosive "Lockjaw" on tenor for instance), after another dry spell, Norman Granz (who had sold his label Verve to MGM in 1962 and moved to Europe) returned to the fold - he had kept managing Ella Fitzgerald (with whom he had made the great series of song book albums dedicated to Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Duke Ellington and others) all the while, and with fouding his new imprint Pablo (named after Picasso of course) created new opportunities for mainstream jazz musicians going through a very rough period through most of the sixties and early seventies. Basie (and Oscar Peterson, and of course Ella) became a mainstay of the new label, churning out album after album, not only with his big band (most of them don't hold up to the best albums from the fifties, but there's one of Bill Holman arrangements for instance that's quite a departure) but also with many jam bands including old favourites such as Roy Eldridge, Harry Edison, Lockjaw and others. Furthermore, Granz made produced two fine trio albums with Basie, paired him with Oscar Peterson several times (five ablums, all in all), in a quartet setting with Zoot Sims etc.

If you feel like checking out any of those jam albums on Pablo, some favourites include "Mostly Blues... and Some Others" (with the great Snooky Young, he was one of the best lead trumpets any big band - including Basie's - could withs for, but was too rarely heard as a soloist), "Basie & Zoot" (w/Sims), "Get Together" (with Clark Terry, "Sweets", "Lockjaw" and Budd Johnson, who's another terrific tenor player and making sure here that Lock won't just cruise). The Holman big band album is "I Told You So", and there's one more that's much more of a departure and finds Basie outside his comfort zone yet it's still very much worth hearing: "Afrique" (RCA/Flying Dutchman), arranged by Oliver Nelson. The trio albums are called "For the First Time" and "For the Second Time", I reckon it's best to start with the first, as for the ones with Oscar Peterson as well, I'd say start with the initial one, "Satch and Josh".

Guess I really love Bill Basie huh?  ;D
Es wollt ein meydlein grasen gan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Und do die roten röslein stan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
Fick mich, lieber Peter!

http://ubus-notizen.blogspot.ch/

Karl Henning

Quote from: Elgarian on December 24, 2015, 01:11:09 AM
This post is so helpful, so open-hearted, so full of sensitivity to the problems faced by those of us who struggle to achieve enlightenment, and it offers such generously-spirited practical advice, that I have highlighted it so that other fellow strugglers who pass this way may read it more clearly, and benefit from its wisdom.

0:)

Where to go next? . . . I don't know that this would necessarily strike a new direction, Alan;  but you might find it an engaging day-trip: Chick Corea's My Spanish Heart, from which:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Z0MHIKcX5J4
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Elgarian

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2015, 04:38:18 AM
0:)

Where to go next? . . . I don't know that this would necessarily strike a new direction, Alan;  but you might find it an engaging day-trip: Chick Corea's My Spanish Heart, from which:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Z0MHIKcX5J4

Alas the video doesn't work for me, Karl, but I'll look him up.

Elgarian

#59
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 24, 2015, 10:47:41 AM
I think you'd benefit from hearing a little about people talk about improv. It may help you understand what you are hearing better. For example, here is a short discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/v/oVvF7S2hW5U

This one shows some nice elements of how the improvisation is created (with a tune you probably know, which helps, and then I thought you might like how he plays some samples at speed and then slows them down - I find that type of thing very helpful). The scale stuff may be a bit of a slog, but if you get to the example after them, you might find that of interest:
https://www.youtube.com/v/vQOa1q8QL6o

Anyway, others may have some better examples - in fact, I hope they do! :)

Many thanks for this. I'll keep coming back to this and dipping into it. As you say, it's generally helpful. On the other hand, I'm not sure this kind of analysis helps my particular problem. I'm happy with the general idea of improvisation. I've thrilled to the point of spine-tinglingness with some of the things Benny Goodman (say) does with his clarinet- he can inject all kinds of unexpected shifts and developments into quite simple melodies that make them seem like delightful musical adventures, and I love that. At one level, I can see where he's going, and how the route he's taking is dependent on the original melody; at another, it feels like magic.

But if someone is going to try to take me on a musical adventure, I do have to want to go with him. Regardless of how intrepid an explorer-guide he may be, there has to be something there to entice me on, to keep me cutting through the hard undergrowth when I encounter it. In the same way, a wonderfully gifted speaker may be delivering a lecture on a topic that I'm simply not interested in. He may manage to draw me in, but if he doesn't, that's pretty much the end of the story - at least for now. I spend a lot of time doing things that are difficult: I want my jazz to be easy.

I've listened to enough Dave Brubeck and Miles Davis (I bought a boxful of far too many Miles Davis CDs a few years ago and have listened to most of them with depressingly little pleasure) to know that I'm simply not interested - at least, not right now. Far too much hard work involved. Maybe one day I'll try again, who knows? By contrast I've already (thanks to suggestions offered here) heard enough Oscar Peterson, Count Basie, etc to know that I am interested. They're different enough to offer a taste of mild adventure, but not so different that I need 6 months' survival training.