Elgar Concerto Showdown: the "Violin Concerto" vs. the "Cello Concerto"

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Interestingly, to me it also took time to understand Violin concerto completely and also part of it's superiority to cello indeed lies in the fact that it didn't give away it's secrets so easily.

[Mirror Image]

Interestingly, to me it also took time to understand Violin concerto completely and also part of it's superiority to cello indeed lies in the fact that it didn't give away it's secrets so easily.

The Cello Concerto, in my view, is a work that's completely in your face and, while it certainly has some gorgeous solo cello and orchestral writing, it doesn't hit me in the same manner as the Violin Concerto. The length of the Violin Concerto alone was also a hurdle for me because I thought "How can Elgar sustain interest throughout the entire 50 (+/- give or take) minutes?" Thankfully, the music is so engaging and leaves you hanging onto every note. There's also this dichotomy happening in this concerto that I hear in many of Elgar's mature works and this is the extrovert/introvert sides of his musical personality, which seem to be in a constant tug-of-war and, as a listener, we're just kind of the middle man it seems mediating between these two extremes.

[Elgarian]

Thanks for this post, Elgarian. Most interesting. The Violin Concerto has so many layers that I simply can't wade through them all even after hearing the work so many times now. I'd love to see a performance of this work with Tasmin Little as it was this violinist who really turned this work around for me, although Nigel Kennedy's early recording with Handley also helped solidify things for me as well. If I recall, your favorite performance is the Hugh Bean/Groves on EMI, correct? I've read many mixed reviews of this performance mainly concerning the slower pace of the performance. What's your take on it?

We had an enormous amount of Bean-based discussion here back in 2010, and I suppose my take on Bean was most clearly expressed in a discussion I had with Karl, when we were comparing Kennedy's (Karl had a special personal connection there) and Bean's approach. To quote myself then:

"[Bean's] recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. "

But there's no shortage of my Beanthusiasm in the Elgar thread from that period. I'll give a few specimen links below, but the chat went on and on, and there was a wide range of response (just as you've noticed). Secondhand copies flew off Amazon like hot cakes! Some shared my view; others objected to the Bean vibrato, or found him 'thin'... etc etc. No consistency emerged in favour of any one interpretation, I think. Still wouldn't, I suppose.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15201.msg370717.html#msg370717

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410021.html#msg410021

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410102.html#msg410102

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410145.html#msg410145

[Mirror Image]

We had an enormous amount of Bean-based discussion here back in 2010, and I suppose my take on Bean was most clearly expressed in a discussion I had with Karl, when we were comparing Kennedy's (Karl had a special personal connection there) and Bean's approach. To quote myself then:

"[Bean's] recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. "

But there's no shortage of my Beanthusiasm in the Elgar thread from that period. I'll give a few specimen links below, but the chat went on and on, and there was a wide range of response (just as you've noticed). Secondhand copies flew off Amazon like hot cakes! Some shared my view; others objected to the Bean vibrato, or found him 'thin'... etc etc. No consistency emerged in favour of any one interpretation, I think. Still wouldn't, I suppose.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15201.msg370717.html#msg370717

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410021.html#msg410021

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410102.html#msg410102

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410145.html#msg410145

Thanks, Elgarian. I do recall reading through some of these posts, I just couldn't remember your exact thoughts on the Bean/Groves. I should try and acquire a copy of this performance, but, from the looks of it, it's not going to be cheap!

[zamyrabyrd]

What do you think of Menuhin and the LSO (1932)? Shall I listen to it?

ZB

[Cato]

Yes, Cato! Do you have a large Elgar collection?

No, although I have listened to library copies of the symphonies, even the completed Third Symphony.

The Internet has everything...just about!

https://www.youtube.com/v/eioIa_ELIUU

[Elgarian]

What do you think of Menuhin and the LSO (1932)? Shall I listen to it?

ZB

Well, it received Elgar's blessing, and he conducted it, so it's definitely worth listening to on those grounds alone. The sound quality is remarkably good on the modern remastered recordings. It may not prove in the end to be a favourite, but it sets a kind of standard against which to compare everything else (if one is so inclined).

[Mirror Image]

No, although I have listened to library copies of the symphonies, even the completed Third Symphony.

The Internet has everything...just about!

https://www.youtube.com/v/eioIa_ELIUU

Oh, okay. Do you have a large CD collection in general?

[Mirror Image]

What do you think of Menuhin and the LSO (1932)? Shall I listen to it?

ZB

I'm not sure who you're directing this question to, but I don't think much of it, but I'm not a fan of historical recordings (pre-stereo) anyway. It also doesn't help that I don't particularly enjoy what Menuhin brings to the musical table.

[Elgarian]

I do recall reading through some of these posts, I just couldn't remember your exact thoughts on the Bean/Groves.

I'm not surprised - I couldn't remember them myself until I looked them up! In any case, I'm concerned now that no recording will seem adequate by comparison with the remarkable performance I heard recently in Malvern (of which I've not found a single review!)

[zamyrabyrd]

I'm not sure who you're directing this question to, but I don't think much of it, but I'm not a fan of historical recordings (pre-stereo) anyway. It also doesn't help that I don't particularly enjoy what Menuhin brings to the musical table.

Anyone. thanks for the feedback!

[71 dB]

I'm depressed about the VC losing... 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I'm depressed about the VC losing... 

I hear you, man. 

[mc ukrneal]

I'm depressed about the VC losing... 

You shouldn't be. The cello concerto is a brilliant work.

[Karl Henning]

Neither piece would be a "loser."

[Bogey]

You'll find another cello vote at the back of the net.

[zamyrabyrd]

Well, it received Elgar's blessing, and he conducted it, so it's definitely worth listening to on those grounds alone. The sound quality is remarkably good on the modern remastered recordings. It may not prove in the end to be a favourite, but it sets a kind of standard against which to compare everything else (if one is so inclined).

Wow! I'm simply mesmerized by this recording. Menuhin was only 16, apart from fantastic technique, what tone he got out of that instrument! 

[Bogey]

Neither piece would be a "loser."

Good take.  For me, it just came down to a preference of which instrument I enjoy, for the mot part, more so.  Not really a matter of the piece in this case.

[mc ukrneal]

Good take.  For me, it just came down to a preference of which instrument I enjoy, for the mot part, more so.  Not really a matter of the piece in this case.

Same here.

[Mirror Image]

I'm not surprised - I couldn't remember them myself until I looked them up! In any case, I'm concerned now that no recording will seem adequate by comparison with the remarkable performance I heard recently in Malvern (of which I've not found a single review!)

It would have been nice if a recording of that performance from Malvern made it to disc, but that's, indeed, wishful thinking. Btw, I bought that Bean/Groves recording. I like Hugh Bean anyway (his Lark Ascending is legendary), so I'm sure he'll do well with Elgar. Can't wait to hear him in the Violin Sonata as well.