Elgar Concerto Showdown: the "Violin Concerto" vs. the "Cello Concerto"

Started by Mirror Image, December 25, 2015, 12:01:16 PM

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Which concerto do you prefer?

Violin Concerto in B minor, Op. 61
11 (45.8%)
Cello Concerto in E minor, Op. 85
13 (54.2%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Jaakko Keskinen

Interestingly, to me it also took time to understand Violin concerto completely and also part of it's superiority to cello indeed lies in the fact that it didn't give away it's secrets so easily.
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

Mirror Image

Quote from: Alberich on December 26, 2015, 07:31:09 AMInterestingly, to me it also took time to understand Violin concerto completely and also part of it's superiority to cello indeed lies in the fact that it didn't give away it's secrets so easily.

The Cello Concerto, in my view, is a work that's completely in your face and, while it certainly has some gorgeous solo cello and orchestral writing, it doesn't hit me in the same manner as the Violin Concerto. The length of the Violin Concerto alone was also a hurdle for me because I thought "How can Elgar sustain interest throughout the entire 50 (+/- give or take) minutes?" Thankfully, the music is so engaging and leaves you hanging onto every note. There's also this dichotomy happening in this concerto that I hear in many of Elgar's mature works and this is the extrovert/introvert sides of his musical personality, which seem to be in a constant tug-of-war and, as a listener, we're just kind of the middle man it seems mediating between these two extremes.

Elgarian

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2015, 05:46:52 AM
Thanks for this post, Elgarian. Most interesting. The Violin Concerto has so many layers that I simply can't wade through them all even after hearing the work so many times now. I'd love to see a performance of this work with Tasmin Little as it was this violinist who really turned this work around for me, although Nigel Kennedy's early recording with Handley also helped solidify things for me as well. If I recall, your favorite performance is the Hugh Bean/Groves on EMI, correct? I've read many mixed reviews of this performance mainly concerning the slower pace of the performance. What's your take on it?


We had an enormous amount of Bean-based discussion here back in 2010, and I suppose my take on Bean was most clearly expressed in a discussion I had with Karl, when we were comparing Kennedy's (Karl had a special personal connection there) and Bean's approach. To quote myself then:

"[Bean's] recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. "


But there's no shortage of my Beanthusiasm in the Elgar thread from that period. I'll give a few specimen links below, but the chat went on and on, and there was a wide range of response (just as you've noticed). Secondhand copies flew off Amazon like hot cakes! Some shared my view; others objected to the Bean vibrato, or found him 'thin'... etc etc. No consistency emerged in favour of any one interpretation, I think. Still wouldn't, I suppose.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15201.msg370717.html#msg370717


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410021.html#msg410021


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410102.html#msg410102

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410145.html#msg410145


Mirror Image

Quote from: Elgarian on December 26, 2015, 08:19:37 AM

We had an enormous amount of Bean-based discussion here back in 2010, and I suppose my take on Bean was most clearly expressed in a discussion I had with Karl, when we were comparing Kennedy's (Karl had a special personal connection there) and Bean's approach. To quote myself then:

"[Bean's] recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. "


But there's no shortage of my Beanthusiasm in the Elgar thread from that period. I'll give a few specimen links below, but the chat went on and on, and there was a wide range of response (just as you've noticed). Secondhand copies flew off Amazon like hot cakes! Some shared my view; others objected to the Bean vibrato, or found him 'thin'... etc etc. No consistency emerged in favour of any one interpretation, I think. Still wouldn't, I suppose.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15201.msg370717.html#msg370717


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410021.html#msg410021


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410102.html#msg410102

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg410145.html#msg410145

Thanks, Elgarian. I do recall reading through some of these posts, I just couldn't remember your exact thoughts on the Bean/Groves. I should try and acquire a copy of this performance, but, from the looks of it, it's not going to be cheap!

zamyrabyrd

What do you think of Menuhin and the LSO (1932)? Shall I listen to it?

ZB
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Cato

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2015, 06:48:51 AM
Yes, Cato! Do you have a large Elgar collection?

No, although I have listened to library copies of the symphonies, even the completed Third Symphony.

The Internet has everything...just about!

https://www.youtube.com/v/eioIa_ELIUU
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Elgarian

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on December 26, 2015, 08:58:53 AM
What do you think of Menuhin and the LSO (1932)? Shall I listen to it?

ZB

Well, it received Elgar's blessing, and he conducted it, so it's definitely worth listening to on those grounds alone. The sound quality is remarkably good on the modern remastered recordings. It may not prove in the end to be a favourite, but it sets a kind of standard against which to compare everything else (if one is so inclined).

Mirror Image

Quote from: Cato on December 26, 2015, 09:20:42 AM
No, although I have listened to library copies of the symphonies, even the completed Third Symphony.

The Internet has everything...just about!

https://www.youtube.com/v/eioIa_ELIUU

Oh, okay. Do you have a large CD collection in general?

Mirror Image

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on December 26, 2015, 08:58:53 AM
What do you think of Menuhin and the LSO (1932)? Shall I listen to it?

ZB

I'm not sure who you're directing this question to, but I don't think much of it, but I'm not a fan of historical recordings (pre-stereo) anyway. It also doesn't help that I don't particularly enjoy what Menuhin brings to the musical table.

Elgarian

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
I do recall reading through some of these posts, I just couldn't remember your exact thoughts on the Bean/Groves.

I'm not surprised - I couldn't remember them myself until I looked them up! In any case, I'm concerned now that no recording will seem adequate by comparison with the remarkable performance I heard recently in Malvern (of which I've not found a single review!)

zamyrabyrd

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2015, 07:32:58 PM
I'm not sure who you're directing this question to, but I don't think much of it, but I'm not a fan of historical recordings (pre-stereo) anyway. It also doesn't help that I don't particularly enjoy what Menuhin brings to the musical table.

Anyone. thanks for the feedback!
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

71 dB

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Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
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Jaakko Keskinen

"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

mc ukrneal

Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2015, 03:06:27 AM
I'm depressed about the VC losing...  :(
You shouldn't be. The cello concerto is a brilliant work.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Bogey

There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

zamyrabyrd

Quote from: Elgarian on December 26, 2015, 11:13:54 AM
Well, it received Elgar's blessing, and he conducted it, so it's definitely worth listening to on those grounds alone. The sound quality is remarkably good on the modern remastered recordings. It may not prove in the end to be a favourite, but it sets a kind of standard against which to compare everything else (if one is so inclined).

Wow! I'm simply mesmerized by this recording. Menuhin was only 16, apart from fantastic technique, what tone he got out of that instrument! 
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Bogey

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2015, 04:53:44 AM
Neither piece would be a "loser."

Good take.  For me, it just came down to a preference of which instrument I enjoy, for the mot part, more so.  Not really a matter of the piece in this case.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Bogey on December 27, 2015, 05:09:54 AM
Good take.  For me, it just came down to a preference of which instrument I enjoy, for the mot part, more so.  Not really a matter of the piece in this case.
Same here.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Mirror Image

Quote from: Elgarian on December 26, 2015, 10:09:06 PM
I'm not surprised - I couldn't remember them myself until I looked them up! In any case, I'm concerned now that no recording will seem adequate by comparison with the remarkable performance I heard recently in Malvern (of which I've not found a single review!)

It would have been nice if a recording of that performance from Malvern made it to disc, but that's, indeed, wishful thinking. :) Btw, I bought that Bean/Groves recording. I like Hugh Bean anyway (his Lark Ascending is legendary), so I'm sure he'll do well with Elgar. Can't wait to hear him in the Violin Sonata as well. 8)