How do you compose music?

[Cato]

It would be cool if you guys could post some links here, so I could hear (or in the case of Cato's stories, read) some of the work in question.

Here is an example of "musically poetic prose," i.e. various rhythms propel the sentences along without (I believe) any "clunkiness" in the prose.

A center of the universe is a fine, rare thing, an invisible bird whose nearly silent trills and feathery wishes emanate the most precious happiness for you, if you can entice it to orbit you for very long!  And when you are at any center of the universe, your soul will swirl with the contentment of a hibernating chipmunk, acres of future oak trees under his ribs, visions of cats and foxes defeated forever delighting his heart, and the prophecies of windy green leaves fanning a thousand scents for his tiny mind's contemplation.  A center of the universe always disappears eventually, a restless migration toward extinction, so you have no time to vacillate in cowardice or sloth!  When it will evaporate is unpredictable, so you must grasp the center as soon as you can.  That a center of the universe could be found on Xenia Avenue, in the interesting city of Dayton, in the fascinating state of Ohio, in the marvelous country of America, that this center would be held and contained by a large group of children for many years, and that all of them would send chronoripples throughout the universe itself: nobody could have predicted that!

[Rinaldo]

Here is an example of "musically poetic prose," i.e. various rhythms propel the sentences along without (I believe) any "clunkiness" in the prose.

I really enjoyed this, is there more of your writing available?


To add to this thread: well, I'm not a composer - I don't read music - but I do make a lot of it, deriving my style from the modern luxury of layering stuff via multitrack recording. I usually begin by fooling around on a keyboard (I've been improvising on a piano since I was a kid, although I've never learned to properly play the thing), trying different virtual instruments and timbres, then something - could be a sample, a loop, a melody or a musical phrase - clicks and I start to build up on that foundation. Whether it ends up as a song or just an instrumental, the starting point is me experimenting and seeing where it takes me. Sometimes there is a direction I steer myself towards (could be a mood or an idea I wish to express) but usually it's the process of experimentation itself that informs the outcome.

To illustrate, here's one of my instrumental tracks where the string loop is being sped up, twisted, time shifted and eventually (at the 2:00 mark) sparks a melody, and here's a song (warning: contains singing in a weird Slavic language) where you can hear first the 'foundation' melody and then another piano track on top of it, with slight variations throughout.

[Mandryka]

Here is an example of "musically poetic prose," i.e. various rhythms propel the sentences along without (I believe) any "clunkiness" in the prose.

Great! Wonderful to read, especially knowing your way of working.

[Karl Henning]

I really enjoyed this

I have really enjoyed the entire MS.!

[Cato]

Great! Wonderful to read, especially knowing your way of working.

Many thanks!

I really enjoyed this, is there more of your writing available?

Check your messages, Rinaldo!

I have really enjoyed the entire MS.!

Karl is a loyal and enthusiastic reader!   0:)

I have kept one little tape of a quarter-tone work: one of my students in the 1980's (who later went to Apple and invented the jpeg image program: yes, he should be a multi-trillionaire, but Apple had proprietary rights to it, since he worked for them) created a music program to "play" the work through a 1980's synthesizer.  He basically had to program every note individually!  So the complexity was kept to a moderate level.

It sounds therefore like music played on a broken Martian vacuum cleaner!      Karl heard it once during a visit, and survived the experience! 

Some day I should look into transferring it to an mp3 or mp4 or whatever number is at the cutting edge these days!  Then I could share it here for everyone to experience.

[Monsieur Croche]

As far as any literal connection, or a literal and direct parallel to the end result initially triggered by that inspiration, for a composer these are often nothing more than remotely tangential at best; these notions are also as often fleeting and interchangeable, with seemingly non-related subsequent images, parallels, coming up throughout the working process.

Any visual stimulation, dynamics between personae dramatis, etc. are but a springboard for most composers: ditto for anything allegedly remotely 'philosophical.'

The penchant for non-composers to tie in anything much literal or graphic to what is the highly abstract mode of absolute music and the act of composing it makes that proclivity of assuming those associations of word and image very strong and can lead them to think that those are the things which drive the composer and propel the writing. Since the non-composer [this includes performers who neither improvise or compose] does not have the same abstract musical matrix from which to draw, I fear 'what composers do when composing' remains something only known by those who do.

Sure, some composers will name their triggers, whether those are verbal or image, but whatever the named inspirational trigger, I believe it a huge error to guess much at all 'what that means' as to either the process of actual composing or any specific meaning within a given piece of completed music, because the myriad of statements from composers falls yet again within that realm of grappling with analogies which are unique and idiosyncratic to each individual who composes, precisely due to the fact that language and image fall so far short of what actually does go on once the pen is directed toward the manuscript paper. The simple proof of this is found in polling listeners who have not been given any information other than the piece itself as to the specific meaning of the piece.

Some of those abstract modes of thought while composing can be slightly off or set aside when a piece is tied to a sung text. Most who have ever set a text I think would agree that when a text is involved, consciously and unconsciously, the text the composer is setting does have a direct effect upon what is composed. Where a program is set to an otherwise completely instrumental work, I recommend taking that attached program with a grain of salt.

Triggers apart, and taking into account the actuality of them lasting but one or several nanoseconds, what remains is a well-versed musician thinking in sheer musical terms, much of those terms more technical at that, of what they come up with, or why.  I.e. after that initial nano-second, the composer's mind instantly turns directly to Musical Ideas upon which it is near impossible to impose any concrete literal or pictorial attachments, and then pursues that musical idea, and what is inherent in it which is going to yield.

All that thinking is, for many a composer, non-verbal, and might, just might, be momentarily grappled with through literal or visual analogies, etc. which are -- again -- only fleetingly useful and can be changed for another seemingly unrelated analogy while working on the same piece. The end result may not communicate even a scintilla of those disparate and temporary analogies which were helpful to the composer as they were working.

As often as "Music is a language" is repeatedly said or thought, and regardless of the fact music is universally recognized as a medium of communication, "Music is a language" is in itself but an analogy for something which cannot be directly communicated through any medium other than... music.

After having painted so many canvases the subject of which was water lilies, Monet was asked,
"Why water lilies?"
[Subjectively, those canvases might be of and about water lilies, yet,] Monet answered,
"I chose water lilies, but it could have been anything."
[... which raises the question if those paintings are actually 'of and about water lilies' at all.]

[Luke]

There is a book by (composer) Jonathan Harvey called Inspiration which is an investigation into exactly this subject. It is essentially a carefully sifted and pondered-upon compilation, the result of his trawl through all the available literature from every major composer you can think of and many minor ones too. A very interesting read.

[amw]

My experience has been an inability to replicate the methods of any other composer, and a difficulty in explaining my own. I just sort of... er... hear things in my head and then write them down. It's very unsatisfying. I guess if I had to explain it I would draw an analogy to how a child, once she has learned to speak, will also pick up something of the rules of grammar and try to construct her own sentences, not always with coherent results but with an innate drive for self-expression I guess. Music is much more vague and abstract but there is a certain "grammar of expectations" or whatever, and the subconscious part of my brain is basically taking musical "words" I have learned and trying to construct "sentences" that satisfy or subvert this grammar in order to express particular "meanings". Sorry, this is really bad.

It's a moot point since I'm not really a composer anymore by normal standards—like while I've written a few pieces of actual music in the last 2 years the piece I've spent the most time and attention on, the most "personal" thing that resonates most strongly with my own emotions, is a literal Schubert-Dvořák-Brahms pastiche consisting almost entirely of kitsch. That probably says a lot about me as a person, but never mind. It's honestly questionable whether the way I write is actually that of a composer as opposed to just a pastichist (I guess I could seek vocation as a film composer, but I pastiche the wrong stuff, lmao)

[Dax]

the most "personal" thing that resonates most strongly with my own emotions, is a literal Schubert-Dvořák-Brahms pastiche consisting almost entirely of kitsch. That probably says a lot about me as a person, but never mind. It's honestly questionable whether the way I write is actually that of a composer as opposed to just a pastichist (I guess I could seek vocation as a film composer, but I pastiche the wrong stuff, lmao)

This sounds interesting to me: given that you mention that it "consists almost entirely of kitsch", the suggestion is of an element over and above mere pastiche - irony perhaps? Does the music of  Ladislav Kupkovic hold any attraction?

Composers like Constant Lambert and, more recently, John White would maintain that writing "pastiche" (or whatever you might call it) for, say, theatrical productions, is in no way an inferior form of activity to composing concert works . . .

[amw]

This sounds interesting to me: given that you mention that it "consists almost entirely of kitsch", the suggestion is of an element over and above mere pastiche - irony perhaps?

I should not have made that suggestion then.... The kitsch is unintentional (except for one or two bits), mostly comes from the style and the element of distance created; the music could have been a serious concert piece if it were written in 1870, or a nostalgic epigonic work if it were written in 1915. As a piece it is dreadfully un-ironic and absolutely devoid of humour, and presumably extremely uninteresting to anyone except me.

Does the music of  Ladislav Kupkovic hold any attraction?

It's not something I've been aware of previously. I will fix that.

Composers like Constant Lambert and, more recently, John White would maintain that writing "pastiche" (or whatever you might call it) for, say, theatrical productions, is in no way an inferior form of activity to composing concert works . . .

Perhaps the most complimentary way I could frame my kitsch-writing activities is through creating alternative histories or whatever, in which the music then becomes secondary to the presentation and ideas, and its pastiche nature acquires a meaning. But with Jennifer Walshe that seems superfluous these days.

[some guy]

I more than half suspect that what Mandryka wants is something that simply doesn't exist. That is, while a composer or seven may muse from time to time in words about what is going on when they are making music, what composers do as composers is write music, not muse about writing music.

So the writing about music will be more often than not quite unsatisfactory for what Mandryka reports as wanting to have.

In short, the question is wrong. So all the answers will be more or less unsatisfactory (for the asker).

Of course humans are interested in the things humans are interested in. And humans are interested in ideas and philosophy and forces and inspiration and such. But the humans who are composers, whatever else they are interested in, are doing a particular task when composing, and the exigencies of the task do tend to dominate, no matter what the initial impulses may have been.

Why do people feel compelled to write music in the first place? That has no answer, I'm sure, because it's not a real question. Or it has many different and conflicting answers as people try to answer it and fail. As for the what is going on while one is composing aspect of it, that's all the things that Mandryka reports as not wanting to hear about.

[Luke]

I should not have made that suggestion then.... The kitsch is unintentional (except for one or two bits), mostly comes from the style and the element of distance created; the music could have been a serious concert piece if it were written in 1870, or a nostalgic epigonic work if it were written in 1915. As a piece it is dreadfully un-ironic and absolutely devoid of humour, and presumably extremely uninteresting to anyone except me.

For obvious reasons your description makes me think of Silvestrov's Kitsch Music (for piano). Typical Silvestrov, in that like so many of his pieces it has the character of a postlude, a nostalgic ruckblick, a postlude for a whole time/style rather than for a particular piece. It is kitsch, I suppose, but in such a tender, deliberate, subtle way, and like all Silvestrov, exquisitely shaded and sensitive.

[Karl Henning]

Marvelous discussion, in all events.

[Monsieur Croche]

I more than half suspect that what Mandryka wants is something that simply doesn't exist. That is, while a composer or seven may muse from time to time in words about what is going on when they are making music, what composers do as composers is write music, not muse about writing music.

So the writing about music will be more often than not quite unsatisfactory for what Mandryka reports as wanting to have.

In short, the question is wrong. So all the answers will be more or less unsatisfactory (for the asker).

Of course humans are interested in the things humans are interested in. And humans are interested in ideas and philosophy and forces and inspiration and such. But the humans who are composers, whatever else they are interested in, are doing a particular task when composing, and the exigencies of the task do tend to dominate, no matter what the initial impulses may have been.

Why do people feel compelled to write music in the first place? That has no answer, I'm sure, because it's not a real question. Or it has many different and conflicting answers as people try to answer it and fail. As for the what is going on while one is composing aspect of it, that's all the things that Mandryka reports as not wanting to hear about.

I wouldn't call the question a wrong question, but like all other 'what was the artist thinking about when they... questions, it is forever unanswerable. At best, the answers to that question which come from the artist's interior will elicit the grand and spectacular opening of a large can of highly personal associative idiosyncratic and relatively meaningless undecipherable worms which in no way will satisfy the wont of s/he who asked.

The other more 'composer-like' responses will be within that abstract plane of sheer musical thinking, some theoretical, others strategic [the "No, not here but later or there for a particular segment to have its greatest affect." mode], and thinking in terms of gestures, etc. or, as you put it, "'all the things the OP reports as not wanting to hear about.

Whatever the mechanics, "thinking only of how to make the piece work, bar to bar and as a whole." is the answer, and that just isn't very interesting laundry to air, nor does it make for any sort of sexy or glamorous response or discussion thereof. That kind of discussion is usually only interesting, and understood, between one composer discussing composition with another composer, lol.

If you want to know "How do you compose music?" then you will have to learn how to compose music and then... compose. I can't foresee any quick-fix answers or short-cuts to doing that or of finding any sort of neat answers to the question.

[Karl Henning]

I am nearly done writing a piece for ten winds, for a local group.  The musical tastes and preferences of a number of the members run to two or three generations before me;  but a few of the members are enthusiastic for my work, and want to corral the lot along . . . and to that end asked me to talk about the piece.  I essentially wrote about the unfolding musical material, although (to a degree) they want dinosaurs and pixies, so to speak.  It isn't that I was defying them (they are, after all, advocating for my work).  The colorful title of the piece has suggested to them "stories" for the various sections, and I think that's fine;  but apart from the deliberately stimulating title, I have not composed stories for the unfolding sections.  I do not have Authorial narratives for the sections, and I am inclined to live and let listen, anyway . . . so all I could in good conscience provide, is discussion of the musical material, which was really how I worked in this case.

[Monsieur Croche]

I am nearly done writing a piece for ten winds, for a local group.  The musical tastes and preferences of a number of the members run to two or three generations before me;  but a few of the members are enthusiastic for my work, and want to corral the lot along . . . and to that end asked me to talk about the piece.  I essentially wrote about the unfolding musical material, although (to a degree) they want dinosaurs and pixies, so to speak.  It isn't that I was defying them (they are, after all, advocating for my work).  The colorful title of the piece has suggested to them "stories" for the various sections, and I think that's fine;  but apart from the deliberately stimulating title, I have not composed stories for the unfolding sections.  I do not have Authorial narratives for the sections, and I am inclined to live and let listen, anyway . . . so all I could in good conscience provide, is discussion of the musical material, which was really how I worked in this case.

Quite right, and I think you were fortunate to communicate that without going down story lane. "Story," can certainly help a player find their way to a more desired psychological dynamic that the best-notated score with the best directives in the world cannot communicate, yet, whether player or listener, I think the minute one story is given, it closes the door on all the other 'stories' which might be there at the same time. If it must be, a briefer capsule sized phrase marking an aspect of psychological dynamic is more effective, and specific enough without going down story lane.

Children learning to play, as well as many a neophyte who is beginning to listen to classical, are often told to think of the piece as "telling a story." [Perhaps your older generation players had that sensibility from both early training and that romantic / later romantic conceit.] "Story" is but a substituted analogy until the beginners are further along and ready to begin to understand form

I had a student piece done by fellow student performers, a song for baritone voice, viola, horn, tuba, two pianos [in the coda only for this first song of three] and percussionist. The brass parts were vertical intervals, the dynamic that average unmarked mf, the figure static and repeated, slow pulsed and long held. It was the fundamental accompaniment figuration throughout much of that movement.

The horn player, after a few 'sectional' rehearsals with the tubist, without knowing anything about the text of the song, asked me, "Do you want these like taut telephone wires, or more like taffy being pulled?" I laughed because this was about different tension degrees of a catenary, and those were spot on appropriate possibilities. I answered, "Taffy." and everything was good. No story needed or wanted, a simple and non-sentimentalized analogy, and everything was hunky dory. Of course, it doesn't always go like that, lol.

Congratulations on the piece, having it performed, and I pray to Apollo it was commissioned