Classical Music Martinets

[Holden]

On mentioning Georg Szell in the 'Finales' thread and what I said about his Tchaikovsky 4 recording it brought to mind other conductors who were perceived as dictatorial, uncompromising and/or possessed of a savage tongue. Names that come to mind as both definite and possible candidates include Reiner, Toscanini, Karajan, Carlos Kleiber, Beecham, etc - the past is virtually littered with these dictators of the podium.

I'm setting up this thread for posts about those dictator conductors of the past, what they did, what they said and what others said about them. The following link makes for interesting reading but something as simple as
Szell sat through a Philharmonia concert under and ailing Klemperer. He was due to take over the orchestra the next day  and at the end on encountering the orchestra leader snapped "Get a good nights sleep, you have a hard day tomorrow."  would be great.

The witticisms of Thomas Beecham make for good reading one of my favourited being his description of the harpsichord sounding like "two skeletons copulating on a tin roof".

This article from Slipped Disc gives us some idea of Szell the conductor

https://slippedisc.com/2018/08/was-georg-szell-as-horrid-as-described/

[Herman]

My feeling is a lot of the conductor anecdotes are made up by hero worshippers. For instance, why would Szell tell the orchestra they were going to have 'a hard day' when they started with him? There's is no advantage to saying this. Conductors usually say things that are useful. It's no use alienating the orchestra even before you've started.

It sounds like wishful thinking. "I wish I could be as badly behaved as a conductor.'

My other feeling is it's so much better now, conductors treat the orchestras more as a band of colleagues. This may also be so because the level of professionality is much higher now among orchestra musicians. They pretty much can play most of the repertoire by themselves.

[Jo498]

I have not heard that Beecham, Karajan or Kleiber were "martinets" (unlike Reiner or Szell, or the avuncular Karl Böhm who supposedly said to wind soloists during rehearsals in war time that if they didn't get it right next time, they'd go to the eastern front tomorrow).
 
Kleiber might have been difficult but I think he was suffering from insecurity or stage fright and I had not heard that he was mean to orchestral musicians. Similarly, the change from Furtwängler to Karajan in Berlin caused some irritation because they were so different in character and style but not because Karajan mistreated orchestra members. Sure, he fell with the orchestra 30 years later, IIRC, because he wanted to hire Sabine Meyer against the vote of the orchestra.

Of course, one has to be wary with public/filmed rehearsals (e.g. I can hardly imagine that Fricsay was always as cordial, humourous and patient as in the famous Moldau rehearsal with the Südfunk orchestra) but Karajan seems soft spoken and professional in the brief rehearsal excerpts I have seen.

[Mandryka]

Jeggy.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/aug/31/conductor-john-eliot-gardiner-allegedly-slapped-singer-pulls-out-of-performances

A friend used to work for him in the admin of the "Pilgrimage" Bach cantata cycle. He eventually walked out because he couldn't tolerate Jeggy's agressive manner.

[Herman]

Yeah, Jeggy seems to be a case...

[Roasted Swan]

I have not heard that Beecham, Karajan or Kleiber were "martinets" (unlike Reiner or Szell, or the avuncular Karl Böhm who supposedly said to wind soloists during rehearsals in war time that if they didn't get it right next time, they'd go to the eastern front tomorrow).
 
Kleiber might have been difficult but I think he was suffering from insecurity or stage fright and I had not heard that he was mean to orchestral musicians. Similarly, the change from Furtwängler to Karajan in Berlin caused some irritation because they were so different in character and style but not because Karajan mistreated orchestra members. Sure, he fell with the orchestra 30 years later, IIRC, because he wanted to hire Sabine Meyer against the vote of the orchestra.

Of course, one has to be wary with public/filmed rehearsals (e.g. I can hardly imagine that Fricsay was always as cordial, humourous and patient as in the famous Moldau rehearsal with the Südfunk orchestra) but Karajan seems soft spoken and professional in the brief rehearsal excerpts I have seen.

Wasn't it James Galway who said that Karajan did not like players to have beards(!)  Which of course Galway famously did/does.  So in the filmed versions of works which Karajan oversaw he'd get the camera focussing on the smooth-skinned 2nd flute rather than the hirsute Galway.........

[Jo498]

If this is the worst thing he did to Galway... It's probably a generational thing; my grandfather was about Karajan's age and disliked my father growing a full beard as well (so what?), although my father had nothing in common with "hippies", except for the beard.
While I don't think artists should get a pass for mistreating people, I'd cut them some slack for spleens. Maybe not in the 1940s but in the 1970s a Berlin Philharmonic soloist or even long time back seat could just have quit and found another top job. They were handsomely paid professionals and participated in the immense success and money Karajan raked in.
 

[Brian]

Isn't there a story about Artur Rodzinski carrying a gun at rehearsal?

I think it's interesting how much of the discussion is how this is a thing of the past and today's conductors are taught more "people skills". I sometimes wonder if that is a rosier picture than reality. From gossip locally, I've heard that Jaap van Zweden is a challenging perfectionist without much personal charm, but that the musicians appreciated his artistic ambition; and that Mark Elder is sort of an oddball crank who wasted his local (Texas) rehearsal time ranting to our orchestra about Brexit.

[Holden]

Some Thomas Beecham sayings

"I find brass bands have a melancholy sound. All right out of doors, of course – fifty miles away. Like bagpipes, they turn what had been a dream into a public nuisance."

 "I prefer Offenbach to Bach often."

to an orchestra member

 "We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."

 "Her singing reminds me of a cart coming downhill with the brake on."

 "The trouble with women in an orchestra is that if they're attractive it will upset my players and if they're not it will upset me."

[MishaK]

Wasn't it James Galway who said that Karajan did not like players to have beards(!)  Which of course Galway famously did/does.  So in the filmed versions of works which Karajan oversaw he'd get the camera focussing on the smooth-skinned 2nd flute rather than the hirsute Galway.........

That's weird. Blau also had a beard. And I'm pretty sure he appeared quite frequently in the later Karajan videos. Blau and Karajan were also quite friendly, as they shared a passion for aviation.

[Roasted Swan]

That's weird. Blau also had a beard. And I'm pretty sure he appeared quite frequently in the later Karajan videos. Blau and Karajan were also quite friendly, as they shared a passion for aviation.

I think I remember hearing this story related by Galway in a documentary.  No idea if it is true - its entertaining whatever.  What is true is how clearly you can hear Galway's very distinctive sound in many of the BPO recordings of the early 70's.  Is it the Brahms 1 where a particular flute solo sings out with that unmistakeable sound?