Author Topic: David Hurwitz  (Read 13762 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline (poco) Sforzando

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: David Hurwitz
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2016, 08:56:05 PM »
First of all, the OP should delete reference to animals with a certain reputation in relation to another human being (and other putdowns). There is no need for personal attacks behind someone's back, especially when that person is not here to defend themselves. It is really uncalled for and diminishes the poster.
It's a pet peeve of mine, but I really detest when critics go on and on about whether the music should be of interest to me or not. Dislike it? Say it and move on. The reviewer's job is NOT to provide verbose opinions of the composer, but of the disc/performance at hand. Some reference is good: 'sounds like', 'contemporary of', and other references that help the reader understand what type of music the composer composed. But then I guess history is riddled with music critics who think putting others down raises themselves up.

Finally, a lot of people seem to enjoy taking unsubstantiated potshots at British reviewers. It seems to be a filter many have.

a) Hurwitz is a public figure. He is not protected from comments, pro or con, simply because he is not a member of this group.
b) There is no code of rules a reviewer must follow. I see no reason why a reviewer should not offer opinions on the music, especially if it's unfamiliar stuff, and I don't see how this constitutes self-aggrandizement. Again, everyone here does that sort of thing all the time.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Daverz

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5819
  • You can't fool me, it's turtles all the way down!
Re: David Hurwitz
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2016, 08:58:14 PM »
It's a pet peeve of mine, but I really detest when critics go on and on about whether the music should be of interest to me or not.

I do want critics to make value judgements of the music.  I do not see reviewing a recording without mentioning that the music is dull or mediocre to be a service.  It does annoy me when a critic keeps getting assigned music they are obviously not in sympathy with, but that's an editorial issue.

Offline Rinaldo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Cara sposa, dove sei?
    • aaraaf.net
  • Location: Prague
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2016, 09:00:05 PM »
Well, it's the intention behind Sibelius' comment that remains important, which to me is pretty simple: forget the critics, they simply don't matter.

I politely disagree. Critics are a healthy part of the whole 'artistic cycle'. It's just that some of them are lousy at their job, just like there are lousy composers or lousy plumbers.

Offline mc ukrneal

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9118
Re: David Hurwitz
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2016, 09:04:00 PM »
a) Hurwitz is a public figure. He is not protected from comments, pro or con, simply because he is not a member of this group.
b) There is no code of rules a reviewer must follow. I see no reason why a reviewer should not offer opinions on the music, especially if it's unfamiliar stuff, and I don't see how this constitutes self-aggrandizement. Again, everyone here does that sort of thing all the time.
a) So what. This is common courtesy/etiquette.
b) I disagree. An opinion about the performance is one thing, but I am talking about repeated comments about how a composer is not worth listening to, the piece is crap, that they are 'second-rate', etc. This is not the place of the reviewer, in my opinion, and this will inevitably be the reason I stop reading a reviewer or a publication.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 09:06:27 PM by mc ukrneal »
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Offline (poco) Sforzando

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: David Hurwitz
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 09:04:12 PM »
It does annoy me when a critic keeps getting assigned music they are obviously not in sympathy with, but that's an editorial issue.

That doesn't bother me either. A critic out of sympathy with a work may still offer valid insights about it, perhaps more valid than another critic who regards the work uncritically.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 51043
  • Claude Debussy (1862 - 1918)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    ...Brume au-dessus de l'eau...
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2016, 09:07:55 PM »
I politely disagree. Critics are a healthy part of the whole 'artistic cycle'. It's just that some of them are lousy at their job, just like there are lousy composers or lousy plumbers.

Let's ask Mr. Henning these questions since he's most definitely a part of an artistic cycle and I am not: what part does a critic play into your musical process and do you think their criticism of any of your work has been an asset or a liability to getting more of your work heard?
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline (poco) Sforzando

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2016, 09:09:07 PM »
a) So what. This is common courtesy/etiquette.
b) I disagree. An opinion about the performance is one thing, but I am talking about repeated comments about how a composer is not worth listening to, the piece is crap, that they are 'second-rate', etc. This is not the place of the reviewer, in my opinion, and this will inevitably be the reason I stop reading a reviewer or a publication.

So don't read. I like reading reviewers who possess the insight to see the flaws in a work. That doesn't mean they're always on target, but I learned more (say) from John Simon's analysis of the flaws in Bergman's "Cries and Whispers" (a film from a director he often reveres) than from other blandly laudatory comments.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline mc ukrneal

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9118
Re: David Hurwitz
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2016, 09:14:52 PM »
So don't read. I like reading reviewers who possess the insight to see the flaws in a work. That doesn't mean they're always on target, but I learned more (say) from John Simon's analysis of the flaws in Bergman's "Cries and Whispers" (a film from a director he often reveres) than from other blandly laudatory comments.
Music reviewers generally do not provide a detailed analysis of a work. And film is a different animal - we are talking music reviews. But then there is a huge difference between making broad statements with no support (in a short review) vs a more detailed analysis. 
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Offline (poco) Sforzando

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2016, 09:15:21 PM »
Let's ask Mr. Henning these questions since he's most definitely a part of an artistic cycle and I am not: what part does a critic play into your musical process and do you think their criticism of any of your work has been an asset or a liability to getting more of your work heard?

It absolutely can work that way. Critics bring works they love or hate into public awareness. Barber was permanently crushed by the negative reviews of Antony and Cleopatra, for example. Conversely, a supportive review can do much for a creative figure's reputation: every one now wants to see Hamilton on Broadway following rave critical reviews; and directors like Martin Scorsese, Werner Herzog, and Ramin Bahrani have expressed public gratitude to Roger Ebert for championing their films. I think this notion that a critic is superfluous is fundamentally inaccurate.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3407
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2016, 09:20:53 PM »
It is a defensive over-reaction to the famous accusation of Britain as "das Land ohne Musik,"

Funny thing is though, the very accusation is historically inaccurate. England was one of the red-hot centers of European music in the 16th/17th centuries, and enjoyed a noteworthy revival in the 20th. The "Land ohne Musik" stereotype only applies if we're talking about the Classical and Romantic periods.

There wasn't an English Brahms or Beethoven; but on the other hand, there wasn't a German Byrd or Tallis.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 51043
  • Claude Debussy (1862 - 1918)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    ...Brume au-dessus de l'eau...
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2016, 09:23:18 PM »
It absolutely can work that way. Critics bring works they love or hate into public awareness. Barber was permanently crushed by the negative reviews of Antony and Cleopatra, for example. Conversely, a supportive review can do much for a creative figure's reputation: every one now wants to see Hamilton on Broadway following rave critical reviews; and directors like Martin Scorsese, Werner Herzog, and Ramin Bahrani have expressed public gratitude to Roger Ebert for championing their films. I think this notion that a critic is superfluous is fundamentally inaccurate.

Personally, I never understood the need for approval from a critic. People can make up their own minds about art and I'll leave it at that and will be curious to read Karl's answers.
“Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4443
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2016, 09:41:48 PM »
Ignoring your strange homophobic remark about pink and which way Hurwitz "swings" (which was uncalled for and frankly offensive):
I know it's been site policy for apparently forever, but is this really something we're expected to do? Just ignore all the random homophobia (misogyny, racism, admissions of being a literal rapist/possible child abuser, whatever) and allow that kind of behaviour to continue uncontested, in turn making the forum incredibly unwelcoming for lots of people?

I mean that's what I've been doing so far (for instance I found that putting a few members on my block list, eg Sgt Rock, Florestan, Greg, that Valkyrie guy and a few others, cut down the amount of misogyny I have to experience with my own eyes by about 80 percent) but is it really what we should be doing? I mean... whatever.

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4443
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2016, 09:50:27 PM »
A critic out of sympathy with a work may still offer valid insights about it, perhaps more valid than another critic who regards the work uncritically.
Broadly agree with this as well. There aren't a lot of music critics whose insights I take seriously, but of those who do exist, I also value their assessments of works they dislike (even if I may fundamentally disagree).

I'm not sure how important critical response is to contemporary (classical) composers—mostly because the contemporary classical composer probably doesn't make a living from writing music alone—but it's definitely super important for record companies. Look how many people here for instance choose which CDs to sample or buy by reading reviews. >.>

Offline Monsieur Croche

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1439
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2016, 10:10:02 PM »
Edited by Knight to remove the offending text of Scion 7
[Edit Add: ^^^ I kinda wished that had been left up, because it tells us more about the poster than it does about anyone or anything else. Ergo, you have a good idea of the quality of what and who you're dealing with if you respond -- or don't, lol. End Edit Add.]

Dude:
Pink is a color.

Your quote lacks any reference to what it is actually about; to what does it refer?

Swinging one way or t'other plus the fare gets anyone on the bus.

If you mean he's a queer, homo, pansy, etc. and can somehow prove that somehow affects his critical thinking, well, than I think you ought to have the balls to do so, man up, and say exactly what you mean.

The most irritating thing is your quote -- like hearing half of a conversation, no one knows what the hey it is about.

So, what is it about, and what is your point?

"If I were a British critic and thiswere a...." What is the 'this?' you are on about?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 11:56:21 PM by Monsieur Croche »
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~

Offline knight66

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9931
  • Location: Edinburgh
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2016, 10:40:52 PM »
Folks,

I acted on the initial post in this thread as soon as I saw that it had been reported. I am sorry that mods can neither read all posts, nor be on-line to act at once when the reports are made. I have edited that post and removed the quotes of it. I know that makes some subsequent posts make less obvious sense, but the alternative was to bin much more material. I have left a message for the originator of the thread, and will contact him directly. Ideally, the thread would quickly have disappeared, but I am reluctant to bin it as you have produced an interesting discussion.

You are correct that on this site, we don't allow that sort of behaviour.

Knight


DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 14742
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2016, 11:36:45 PM »
It would have been nice to have kept a link to the original review, which I find absolutely OK by the way - including the Hurwitzers view on the British Music Press and British reviewers - they are often laughably provincial making most mainstream UK Music publications occasionally cringeworthy reading.

Offline knight66

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9931
  • Location: Edinburgh
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2016, 11:39:30 PM »
Well, feel free to dig it out and link to it. Clearly you read it so can probably retreive it.

I was not prepared to validate any part of that post.

Knight
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 11:55:02 PM by knight66 »
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 14742
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2016, 12:37:35 AM »
Here it is:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-12140/?search=1

Quote:

"This description may sound like damning with faint praise, but it isn’t meant to be. If I were a British critic and this were a Chandos production of some second-tier English composer (say, Dyson, or Finzi, or Moeran), I could carry on about “yet another triumphant example of the extraordinary musical resurgence of the early 20th century, etc., etc.,” ad nauseam."

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8900
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2016, 01:33:20 AM »
Well, I guess the adjective "professional" is implicit here; not related to any special qualification, but in the sense of doing something as a paid job rather than as a hobby.  :)

Funnily enough, having mostly read page 2 of this thread before page 1, I was going to say "a critic is just an audience member for money".

I like critics so long as they're perceptive. Follow a given critic long enough and you can also work out their own leanings, biases, pet hates etc. and sort of develop a code for translating their comments to take into account your own leanings, biases, pet hates etc. We've all got them, because we're all human beings.

As for Britons favouring Britons, I've thought that for a long time, for example after getting to know the Penguin CD guide. It's not necessarily harmful, for example any inclination they had to steer me towards the Hyperion label has been richly rewarded, but at the same time it's perfectly possible there are things I've missed out on on equivalent continental European labels (or America, or even Australian) that would have been just as satisfying. There's nothing wrong with Britons favouring good British stuff, so long as it doesn't tip over into an uncritical declaration that it's all good just because it's British.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

ComposerOfAvantGarde

  • Guest
Re: David Hurwitz is an ass .....
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2016, 01:47:59 AM »
Please don't mention Australia and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's Ross Edwards as Nigel Westlake fandom... ::)

They write cool music, but wow, so many Australian composers still underrepresented even here!