David Hurwitz

Started by Scion7, January 11, 2016, 06:42:39 PM

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Karl Henning

Quote from: orfeo on January 12, 2016, 03:08:10 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2016, 03:05:21 AM
I haven't listened to any of the Persichetti symphonies
Avoidance, or sheer lack of opportunity?

It is true, though, that my first introduction to Mennin was in just the same environment:  regional high school symphonic band, playing Mennin's Canzona . . . the Mennin work made a much more striking impression upon my mind then, than did the Persichetti;  and as a result when I came, decades later, to seek out more works, my curiosity was keener upon Mennin than Persichetti.

My entrée to Schuman was, similarly, a band arrangement of the New England Triptych . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Florestan

Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2016, 03:36:54 AM
It is true, though, that my first introduction to Mennin was in just the same environment:  regional high school symphonic band, playing Mennin's Canzona . . . the Mennin work made a much more striking impression upon my mind then, than did the Persichetti;  and as a result when I came, decades later, to seek out more works, my curiosity was keener upon Mennin than Persichetti.

My entrée to Schuman was, similarly, a band arrangement of the New England Triptych . . . .

So they do actually have a common denominator: having written music for symphonic band, or which lends itself to such an arrangement.  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Karl Henning

Quote from: Florestan on January 12, 2016, 03:39:40 AM
So they do actually have a common denominator: having written music for symphonic band, or which lends itself to such an arrangement.  :D

Well, nothing really unusual about that:  the symphonic band is a comparatively young ensemble, and therefore much of its literature is perforce New Music.  (Of course, the Mennin piece was actually composed before I was born, but it still felt mighty new to me  8) )

Parenthetically, symphonic band was my first introduction to Holst as well, the classic Suites for Military Band.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Florestan

Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2016, 03:49:31 AM
Well, nothing really unusual about that:  the symphonic band is a comparatively young ensemble, and therefore much of its literature is perforce New Music.  (Of course, the Mennin piece was actually composed before I was born, but it still felt mighty new to me  8) )

Parenthetically, symphonic band was my first introduction to Holst as well, the classic Suites for Military Band.

Is it customary for US high schools to have a symphonic band? I think it is an extraordinary pleasant way to be introduced to classical music as a teenager. I cannot think of a single Romanian high school that has a symphonic band, except those dedicated expressly to the study of music.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Karl Henning

Quote from: Florestan on January 12, 2016, 03:57:32 AM
Is it customary for US high schools to have a symphonic band? I think it is an extraordinary pleasant way to be introduced to classical music as a teenager. I cannot think of a single Romanian high school that has a symphonic band, except those dedicated expressly to the study of music.

It was, when I was in high school.  It may remain more or less customary, even though at present more schools are wrong-headedly cutting out music programs (schools whose PTAs would never dream for an instant of paring back any sports programs).

My aunt (my mother's younger sister) is just a few years older than I;  and there was still an orchestra in our high school when she was enrolled . . . but it had withered away before I reached junior high.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

And yes, very pleasant.  In fact, there are patches of the orchestral literature to which I was introduced via a symphonic band arrangement . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

mc ukrneal

#66
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 12, 2016, 03:24:52 AM
The differences between the art forms are not so great as to invalidate my point. A major problem with music-reviewing is that to discuss musical points, a technical vocabulary is helpful but the readership is not generally versed in this vocabulary. In addition, the newspapers and other media generally cannot print musical examples.
I think it is. Movie reviews are most often of new creative material never experienced before. Interestingly, I would say that reviews of live events tend to be much closer to movie style reviewing than classical disc reviewing. The same is for pop music, where the material is often new. But then, there aren't many reviewers I like (if any these days). But I do agree that the technical barrier is a problem in a classical music some of the time.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

mc ukrneal

#67
Quote from: Florestan on January 12, 2016, 03:57:32 AM
Is it customary for US high schools to have a symphonic band? I think it is an extraordinary pleasant way to be introduced to classical music as a teenager. I cannot think of a single Romanian high school that has a symphonic band, except those dedicated expressly to the study of music.
Many do, though not all. As Karl wrote, the arts programs are often under threat when it comes to budget time (if there is some sort of drive to cut spending). My school system had this when I was there, and even had the bigger, more expensive instruments to use/borrrow during the school year (for example, the tuba).
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Florestan

Thanks for both replies. Well, the difference between US and Romania is that in US the musical education of teenagers is seemingly under threat, while in Romania it is conspicuously missing altogether... :(
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Karl Henning

Quote from: knight66 on January 12, 2016, 01:14:04 AM
I got so sick of the UK critics eulogising over every last eructation by Simon Rattle, that it pushed me in the opposite direction and I hardly listen to his musicmaking. There have been exceptional recordings, but quite a few that I have heard do nothing for me.

Mike

Entirely understand.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2016, 04:02:30 AM
I think it is. Movie reviews are most often of new creative material never experienced before. Interestingly, I would say that reviews of live events tend to be much closer to movie style reviewing than classical disc reviewing. The same is for pop music, where the material is often new. But then, there aren't many reviewers I like (if any these days). But I do agree that the technical barrier is a problem in a classical music some of the time.

Movie reviews don't disappear, and can be consulted via newspaper web sites or anthologies of reviews such as Roger Ebert published. In fact Ebert wrote his Great Movies series (probably never completed at his death) largely to introduce younger viewers to the entire heritage of film that gets overshadowed because everyone's running to the latest thing at the local multiplex. For new releases we're all at the mercy of whichever films the distributors and theaters allow us to see; and there was a time not so long ago where once a film disappeared from the theaters, you'd never see it unless it popped up at an art house or late-night TV. But thanks to DVDs, BluRays, Hulu, Turner Classics, etc., access to the entire history of filmmaking is increasingly available to anyone with a personal player, computer, or TV set; and many film lovers, myself included, have acquired substantial numbers of beautifully restored films from companies such as the Criterion Collection. Ebert certainly had his flaws and limitations, but if he flags a film as a Great Movie, I'll certainly be looking to find it on Hulu or for a used DVD on Amazon.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Karl Henning

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 12, 2016, 04:54:24 AM
Movie reviews don't disappear, and can be consulted via newspaper web sites or anthologies of reviews such as Roger Ebert published. In fact Ebert wrote his Great Movies series (probably never completed at his death) largely to introduce younger viewers to the entire heritage of film that gets overshadowed because everyone's running to the latest thing at the local multiplex. For new releases we're all at the mercy of whichever films the distributors and theaters allow us to see; and there was a time not so long ago where once a film disappeared from the theaters, you'd never see it unless it popped up at an art house or late-night TV. But thanks to DVDs, BluRays, Hulu, Turner Classics, etc., access to the entire history of filmmaking is increasingly available to anyone with a personal player, computer, or TV set; and many film lovers, myself included, have acquired substantial numbers of beautifully restored films from companies such as the Criterion Collection. Ebert certainly had his flaws and limitations, but if he flags a film as a Great Movie, I'll certainly be looking to find it on Hulu or for a used DVD on Amazon.

Yes.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brian

Quote from: amw on January 11, 2016, 08:41:48 PM
I know it's been site policy for apparently forever, but is this really something we're expected to do? Just ignore all the random homophobia (misogyny, racism, admissions of being a literal rapist/possible child abuser, whatever) and allow that kind of behaviour to continue uncontested, in turn making the forum incredibly unwelcoming for lots of people?

I mean that's what I've been doing so far (for instance I found that putting a few members on my block list, eg Sgt Rock, Florestan, Greg, that Valkyrie guy and a few others, cut down the amount of misogyny I have to experience with my own eyes by about 80 percent) but is it really what we should be doing? I mean... whatever.
You raise a good and disturbing point. This ties in to the broader public social-issue point that things won't change until we have the courage to tell offensive people that they're wrong, to their face.

I feel a bit of a hypocrite here, since being a "regular" at GMG has entailed some unwanted people deciding I'm their "friend". This, and the common "We're all just here to talk about music! Stick to the music and nothing else matters!" have made me more willing to look the other way than I should have been. But after hearing the explanation behind a very recent and unfortunate forum drama event, I will be hitting the Report button every damn time. I reported Scion's post to the mods before writing that reply to it.

I thought about sending this as a PM, but maybe it needs to be a separate thread.

Madiel

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2016, 04:02:30 AM
I think it is. Movie reviews are most often of new creative material never experienced before. Interestingly, I would say that reviews of live events tend to be much closer to movie style reviewing than classical disc reviewing. The same is for pop music, where the material is often new. But then, there aren't many reviewers I like (if any these days). But I do agree that the technical barrier is a problem in a classical music some of the time.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I would phrase it differently... it's not so much that something is "new" but there is generally only one version of it. If one wants to hear a Mozart symphony, one is generally asking "which version of this Mozart symphony is best". Of course, around here you can find people who are more than prepared to buy quite a lot of different recordings of the same Mozart symphony, but that isn't common.

Whereas with movies or pop music it's less common that there are multiple versions. If one wants a particular song, there might only be one of it, or the perception is that different versions are sufficiently different in instrumentation, style etc that they're not 'the same thing' in the way that 2 recordings of a symphony are using all the same notes and basic materials. Similarly, there are several versions of some stories on film, but each film is seen as a separate work.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Cato

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2016, 04:06:54 AM
Many do, though not all. As Karl wrote, the arts programs are often under threat when it comes to budget time (if there is some sort of drive to cut spending). My school system had this when I was there, and even had the bigger, more expensive instruments to use/borrow during the school year (for example, the tuba).

Yes, Music and Art are the illegitimate children of what passes for Education these days.  In my own school - A Catholic school with high standards - the attitudes of parents toward Music and Art are execrable.  Part of the problem is that no grades are allowed, only "Meets standards" or "Not yet meeting standards."

I have heard parents say e.g. "Why is the Art teacher giving the kids essays to write.  I mean, it's just Art!" 

Our Music teacher has surrendered: no homework, no quizzes, no rigor.  The kids listen to Basic Music History throughout the years, do some singing and Orff-instrument work, and that is enough.

Americans have in general never been persuaded of the value of a curriculum with Art and Music as equals to Mathematics or English.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Brian

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 12, 2016, 04:54:24 AM
In fact Ebert wrote his Great Movies series (probably never completed at his death) largely to introduce younger viewers to the entire heritage of film that gets overshadowed because everyone's running to the latest thing at the local multiplex.

Ebert's Great Movie series is maybe his greatest achievement, and for me an essential part of watching a classic film. If somebody chooses to ignore all the critics, this is one of the things they are missing: how fascinating and eye-opening it can be to hear an expert explain to you just why a great thing is great.

Critics are often seen (especially here) as serving an essentially negative function, by saying they don't like things and slinging insults. And this is an essential service in some cases, like when you want people to avoid an awful restaurant or avoid an awful movie.

But critics are, in fact, at their most useful when they help you appreciate a great thing even more. Robert Schumann's writings on his contemporaries; Ralph Ellison's essays about jazz; numerous commentaries on Shakespeare (I have collections by Marjorie Garber and David Bevington); Alex Ross's The Rest is Noise; Vagn Holmboe's essay about why he admires Haydn; the essays of David Foster Wallace, Joan Didion, John Jeremiah Sullivan, Christopher Hitchens, etc.; Roger Ebert's Great Movies series.

There's hardly a more misunderstood profession than critic. Ugh: Maybe that's why I ended up in it. But as an idealist, I see it as an opportunity not just to advocate for things (like Ebert advocated for the young Scorsese) but to deepen people's understanding of the art, why they love it, and what makes it work.

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on January 12, 2016, 05:07:06 AM
A Catholic school with high standards

Not Catholic enough, and not high enough standards, meseems.  :D :D :D

I mean, really, for a Catholic school to downplay the importance of music and arts is surprising, to say the least. As for the Catholicity of those parents, there is a Romanian proverb: God, protect me from my firends, for I can protect myself from my ennemies!.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brian

I also question the idea that music critics should refrain from saying "this composer is second-rate." Movie, book, painting, etc. critics do that all the time. And, while we can certainly talk about the language and the tone which a specific music critic uses, in general the idea of evaluating the worth of music is, frankly, the whole damn point!

It helps to have a knowledge of the critic and his/her likes, dislikes, foibles, weaknesses, etc. For example, Dave Hurwitz really loves huge early 20th century romantic orchestral works, and I've found that if he gives a 10/10 to some obscure 70-minute symphony, I'm probably going to hate it. But once you have mapped out these sketches of who a critic is, even reviews you disagree with can be very very valuable. I hate "Santa Fe Listener." But I know if he gives an album 3 stars, it's an essential purchase.

knight66

I need to thank you Brian for reporting the post. In all the actions arising today, I forgot to get back to you. My apologies.

The instant anyone encounters that kind of post; report it. The site has been calm for quite some time; but in my experience, one problem often leads to another and threads sometimes suffer a domino effect. So the earlier the better.

We don't want to smother any remotely controversial discussions, but primarily this is a music board. We have suffered from members who prefer to discuss anything but music and often cause trouble.

When in the midst of a discussion, do bear in mind the onlookers who may be anxious to see too much cut and thrust, even if they are not involved.

Having written all of that; the most acrimonious outbreak of firefighting I ever recall was started on a Haydn String Quartets thread, (probably on the old site).

Knight
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Madiel

Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2016, 05:09:17 AM
Ebert's Great Movie series is maybe his greatest achievement, and for me an essential part of watching a classic film. If somebody chooses to ignore all the critics, this is one of the things they are missing: how fascinating and eye-opening it can be to hear an expert explain to you just why a great thing is great.

Critics are often seen (especially here) as serving an essentially negative function, by saying they don't like things and slinging insults. And this is an essential service in some cases, like when you want people to avoid an awful restaurant or avoid an awful movie.

But critics are, in fact, at their most useful when they help you appreciate a great thing even more. Robert Schumann's writings on his contemporaries; Ralph Ellison's essays about jazz; numerous commentaries on Shakespeare (I have collections by Marjorie Garber and David Bevington); Alex Ross's The Rest is Noise; Vagn Holmboe's essay about why he admires Haydn; the essays of David Foster Wallace, Joan Didion, John Jeremiah Sullivan, Christopher Hitchens, etc.; Roger Ebert's Great Movies series.

There's hardly a more misunderstood profession than critic. Ugh: Maybe that's why I ended up in it. But as an idealist, I see it as an opportunity not just to advocate for things (like Ebert advocated for the young Scorsese) but to deepen people's understanding of the art, why they love it, and what makes it work.

Yes to all of this.

And of course, it's a lot more fun writing about something that you enjoyed. I doubt many reviewers/critics go into that work with the intention of being negative all the time. They go into it because of the prospect of being able to let people know about the good stuff.

People have occasionally suggested I get into music reviewing. It's an attractive idea on one level, but I'm not sure I could cope with a mandated pace. You want me to already tell you my reactions? It'll take months!

I did, though, at one point join a reviewing site where I only had to cope with one pop song at a time. Turns out the 3rd song I listened to remains one of my very favourite things... only at the time I believed I couldn't possibly have found an utterly fantastic song so early and drew back from scoring it as highly as I might have done... I later bought the CD from the artist and played it to anyone who would give me a chance.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!