David Hurwitz

[Herman]

I have watched two or three reviews on Hurwitz's youtube channel, and frankly it was a waste of time.

The first was about Elgar's Symphony nr 2. I was a little surprised to see him characterize the symphony as an unimportant throwaway piece compared to the Mogul March. I mean, you can say you like said march better than the symphony, but it's utter bullshit to say the symphony didn't mean anything to the composer. It's a little strange for a critic to talk about British music as if it's by definitition twee and second rate. If you think so, why review British music?

Also, why talk about Elgar as a Victorian who is afraid of sex? The second symphony is dedicated to Edward VII, the total opposite of Queen Victoria. Elgar was an Edwardian. I don't know if this is cynical trying-to-be-funny, or just ignorance, but it's embarrassing. Nor am I sure it's a good idea to "sing" themes to demonstrate what theme you're talking about. I mean, Hurwitz is no Maria Callas. It doesn't elucidate anything, it just makes you wonder if Hurwitz ever listens to himself, which is a prerequisite for a critic of any kind.

The other clip I saw was about "the most horrible piano concertos" of Reger and Pfitzner, a disgraceful cynical attempt to get laughs about Germans  -  including acting as if it is impossible to pronounce German names and words. Obviously most people interested in classical music tend to be in the second, if not third half of their lives, not young, and maybe there are one or two who think it's like old times again if you act as if Germans bark instead of talk. It's rather painful when a very large part of our classical music heritage happens to be composed by Germans. What are you going to do about it?

So I have no idea what the opening post was about, and I'm not even sure if Hurwitz is an ass. But why on earth would a sane person spend twenty friggin' minutes watching a guy laugh at his own mediocre jokes? I have been a (book) critic for fifteen years. I stopped in 2010, and never regretted it. I believe fifteen years as the maximum time one should spend doing this before one gets tired and cynical. Looking at these DH vids I see the pathology in optima forma. The self-importance, the cynical "humor", the need to grind reputations in the dust, and on the other hand, the need to safeguard the critic's importance (there's a bit about all critics basically agreeing about what is good in a Beethoven clip  -  in other words, critics are always right, which somehow, I don't know why, brings to mind Joyce Hatto, maybe as evidence music critics always parrot each other?) and, really, the tiredness of yet again visiting the tired ol' warhorses. I mean, really? does anybody need a twenty minute vid about 'the BEST Rach PC2"?

[T. D.]

I have watched two or three reviews on Hurwitz's youtube channel, and frankly it was a waste of time.

...

The other clip I saw was about "the most horrible piano concertos" of Reger and Pfitzner, a disgraceful cynical attempt to get laughs about Germans  -  including acting as if it is impossible to pronounce German names and words. Obviously most people interested in classical music tend to be in the second, if not third half of their lives, not young, and maybe there are one or two who think you're defending your country (in Hurwitz's case the UK) if you act as if Germans bark instead of talk. It's rather painful when a very large part of our classical music heritage happens to be composed by Germans. What are you going to do about it?

So I have no idea what the opening post was about, and I'm not even sure if Hurwitz is an ass. But why on earth would a sane person spend twenty friggin' minutes watching a guy laugh at his own mediocre jokes?

I find that strange. I have no interest in DH's youtube videos, and am not a Classics Today "Insider", but read a reasonable amount of reviews from the CT site. I have always considered that CT practically worships both Hamelin and Hyperion. Indeed, the Hyperion "Romantic Piano Cti" disc with the Reger, performed by Hamelin (it's not a new recording, c. 2010) got 9/9 from Jed Distler on CT.

So if I was shelling out money for the privilege of being a Classics Today "Insider", what source should I believe: the CT site or DH's youtube channel? 

[Madiel]

David Hurwitz is American. One should not be so worked up about what is wrong with his reviews that one can't figure this out.

[Herman]

David Hurwitz is American. One should not be so worked up about what is wrong with his reviews that one can't figure this out.

I did not know he was an American, but on the other hand I'm not sure either one should know where a critic comes from when it's about historical classical music

"It's a little strange for a [edit] music critic to talk about British music as if it's by definitition twee and second rate. If you think so, why review British music?"

[Jo498]

PEter Serkin also played Reger frequently, incl. the pc but AFAIK did not make a commercial recording of the latter.
I was angry enough after a few minutes of his Lieder rant, so I did not bother with the "horrible" piano concertos. I am not huge fan of either piece but they certainly deserve at least as much attention as the typical Hyperion excavation. They are also quite different from each other, as generally the main or only common element of Reger and Pfitzer is that they are late romantic German composers.

[Herman]

Yes, Peter Serkin played one of those large variation pieces by Reger, just like his dad.

If I were a music critic, the fact that several great interpreters find this music worth their while would give me pause. And it would certainly make me refrain from this onslaught of bad jokes.

[Herman]

Yes, Peter Serkin played one of those large variation pieces by Reger, just like his dad.

If I were a music critic, the fact that several great interpreters find this music worth their while would give me pause. And it would certainly make me refrain from this onslaught of bad jokes.

I don't even know what "the Lieder rant" is about but I am pretty sure DH is feeding people's prejudices a lot, hoping to get more clicks, which is ultimately a self-defeating strategy.

If you want to hear bad jokes about Germans you don't need all the twaddle about classical music.

[Todd]

Obviously most people interested in classical music tend to be in the second, if not third half of their lives

Pray tell, what is the third half of a person's life?

As to Hurwitz, I believe at least one Barnum quote applies. 

Alternatively, for younger readers, it's important to remember that haters gonna hate.

[Jo498]

It is a fairly new video but in essence he said the same many years ago: Classical Lieder are essentially like popsongs, just more pretentious and their interpreters and listeners even more so. The texts are as silly as it gets which makes the affection and pretention worse. Symphonies have no analogue in modern popular music, so there is a good reason to listen to them. But there is not really a good reason to listen to Schubert or Wolf instead of contemporary pop music. If lieder are sung at all, they should be sung "artlessly" as historically in small circles of friends in a Salon etc.
He has a few vaild points that are either trivially true (that songs by Dowland, Purcells, Schubert, Wolf etc. have a bit more in common with 20th century popular songs than Bruckner symphonies do, but this does not negate the differences). And of course, there is often pretentiousness. But he, as a nerdy fan of classical music mocks the supposedly prententious lieder toffs in exactly the same way many fans of rock/pop would mock the opera/classical toffs.

[Todd]

Classical Lieder are essentially like popsongs, just more pretentious and their interpreters and listeners even more so.

That's basically true.

It may be time to repost this from the blog Stuff White People Like: #108 Appearing to enjoy Classical Music

[Madiel]

Meh. Hurwitz would probably be horrified if someone said there was no need to listen to the favourite songs of his youth because there were plenty of newer songs that were pretty much the same. It's a silly argument.

Maybe he just can't handle things that aren't in English.

[Brian]

I have watched two or three reviews on Hurwitz's youtube channel, and frankly it was a waste of time.

The first was about Elgar's Symphony nr 2. I was a little surprised to see him characterize the symphony as an unimportant throwaway piece compared to the Mogul March. I mean, you can say you like said march better than the symphony, but it's utter bullshit to say the symphony didn't mean anything to the composer.

That was a joke. Delivered with a straight face, but definitely a joke.

[Jo498]

The potential for pretentiousness applies in the same way to the person who prefers Couperin to Chopin, Vaughan Williams to Verdi, or generally the less familiar to the more popular or even classical music in favor of anything else. And by now, there are lot of pretentious fans of popular music (in my highschool time in the late 1980s there was a deep rift between hard'n heavy and "pop" fans and probably also between the infinite variety of these subgroups). Not even to start with jazz that was dance music even until after WW II and is now the abode of turtlenecked guys in late middle age with $$$ turntables in sparsely furnished living rooms
Anything somewhat distinctive can lead to pretention and pretentiousness. And as appreciation can be feigned (unlike playing music or actually doing art or some other pretentious hobby), it will be sometimes. However, in a time and society where classical music (and even more some niches within classical music) are socially distinctive only in very small segments of society, real friends will draw more often mockery than gain any social status.

The very similarity between classical and popular songs could be used by someone trying to make more fans of classical music to recommend a bunch of Lieder, mélodies etc. that they might actually prefer to Bruckner symphonies. Instead he idiotically claims that the genre has basically been superseded. They same could be said of Ma vlast versus Star wars movie scores and it would be as wrong.

[Herman]

good definition of a joke is: something people laugh about or find funny.

not: the one who's making the joke is the only one laughing.

[Herman]

The very similarity between classical and popular songs

The vocal range in classical vocal music is obviously way larger than in pop music.

In most pop songs the vocal line never exceeds an octave, and usually doesn't even come close to doing that.

Singers who do, like Mariah Carey, are exceptions and are lauded like they are divas.

However, Carey could not sing a line without microphone and amplification, and this goes for the entire pop / musical business. These performers have technical limitations that would make them utterly lost in classical vocal music.

[Todd]

The potential for pretentiousness applies in the same way to the person who prefers Couperin to Chopin, Vaughan Williams to Verdi, or generally the less familiar to the more popular or even classical music in favor of anything else.

Yep.

I think it may be difficult for many people on this forum to accept the fact that classical music is basically irrelevant, very few people care about it, and that occasionally erudite exchanges about irrelevant distinctions among artists, recordings, performances, performance traditions, and perceived technical superiority - eg, extended vocal range - are intrinsically pretentious.  Other verbs are preferred - discriminating, cultured, sophisticated, etc.

[Madiel]

The vocal range in classical vocal music is obviously way larger than in pop music.

In most pop songs the vocal line never exceeds an octave, and usually doesn't even come close to doing that.

Singers who do, like Mariah Carey, are exceptions and are lauded like they are divas.

However, Carey could not sing a line without microphone and amplification, and this goes for the entire pop / musical business. These performers have technical limitations that would make them utterly lost in classical vocal music.

Sigh. How the hell is stereotyping of pop singing by a classical fan any better than stereotyping of classical singing by a pop fan?

For one thing there are plenty of lieder and melodies that don't involve a wide compass.

[Herman]

Sigh. How the hell is stereotyping of pop singing by a classical fan any better than stereotyping of classical singing by a pop fan?

For one thing there are plenty of lieder and melodies that don't involve a wide compass.

I don't know any pop performer who sings without a microphone.

Even lousy street performers have since the turn of the century moved to amplification.

And, in classical, if your vocal range does not exceed an octave, good luck trying to get into a conservatory or music school.

[Daverz]

good definition of a joke is: something people laugh about or find funny.

not: the one who's making the joke is the only one laughing.

I think you have HDS, Hurwitzer Derangement Syndrome.

I got the joke the first time, though I did roll my eyes.

I'll also admit that I have a Lieder problem.  I have books on Lieder, many lieder recordings, but I just can't get into it.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

That was a joke. Delivered with a straight face, but definitely a joke.

+1  That's how I saw it too.

PD