David Hurwitz

[Spotted Horses]

This is why, lately, I've been attracted to the complete recordings of so-and-so. I get access to all the recordings that never got released because everyone knows they are terrible!

That reminds me, I made a note to listen to the Barbirolli/Halle recording of La Mer, but forgot all about it.

[Madiel]

Madiel, those two posts have a remarkable amount of bitterness and sarcasm and I really don't understand the need for that tone. (Feel safe telling you this because I like and enjoy your contributions and we get along.)

It is incredibly frustrating when someone says they would never make the silly argument that they in fact already made.

Because it demonstrates that the whole conversation was a total waste of time. But it comes without the actual admission that the silly argument was wrong. It just comes with the further silly claim that the person would never be so silly.

Working through other people's cognitive dissonance like that tends to make me feel that they should have done it themselves before typing.

It should be obvious that "another person" includes ME. I am a person who finds reviews useful, disproving in a single stroke the claim that reviews aren't useful to other people. And yet I'm dealing with someone who thinks that the issue is whether they personally find reviews useful. To the extent that we are talking about different things, I'm the one who is addressing what the other person originally said, and that other person is ignoring it. So yes, I find that super frustrating and always do.

My mistake was to argue not in the general abstract but to personalise to some extent. Instead of exploring whether he truly, genuinely finds reviews useless, I should have just straight out said how that isn't a basis for claiming that all people find reviews useless.

Mind you, other people including Todd tried that and didn't get far. It's clear that I was not the only person who understood that a general claim was being made, and responded to just how silly that claim was.

[Madiel]

That's my point, I don't want to find the one (or ones) that I like best. I like experiencing the diversity.

And yet, you supplied an anecdote about your favourite Planets recording and how someone else didn't rate it highly. Not about exploring all the other Planets recordings on the list.

Either you care about identifying preferred recordings or you don't, but I no longer care about working through your thought patterns on this topic.

[DavidW]

A fun video from Mr Hurwitz: Music Chat: Insane Audiophile Road Shows and Other Tales from the Crypt

That does sound like a fun idea for a video, and different from the usual review/survey.  I will be giving it a shot!  Especially if he pokes fun of some audiophiles or over the top record label stunts.

[Karl Henning]

That does sound like a fun idea for a video, and different from the usual review/survey.  I will be giving it a shot!  Especially if he pokes fun of some audiophiles or over the top record label stunts.

(* chortle *)

[staxomega]

Evidently there are people who like food so much they are not satisfied just to eat it, but want to read about it too.

I consider myself a food nerd, reading Jonathan Gold's writing is like being transported. It was an art in itself.

[Spotted Horses]

And yet, you supplied an anecdote about your favourite Planets recording and how someone else didn't rate it highly. Not about exploring all the other Planets recordings on the list.

Either you care about identifying preferred recordings or you don't, but I no longer care about working through your thought patterns on this topic.

The fact that some recordings lodge themselves in my memory more strongly than others doesn't mean that I "care about identifying preferred recordings."

I have no idea why you feel compelled to convince me that I secretly agree with you but refuse to admit it. There is no "cognitive dissonance" in my view of the subject. My personal experience is that individual reviews have no correlation with my reaction to a recording. I think of the reviews themselves as a form of entertainment that some people enjoy. Music reviews are produced for the same reason that other forms of entertainment are produced, because people are willing to pay for them. Perhaps a statical convergence of reviews has some significance, but I don't find myself too interested because at this point I enjoy hearing a variety of different performances, not the "best."

By now, Hurwitz must be chafing that he is not the center of attention, even on his own thread!

[Karl Henning]

The fact that some recordings lodge themselves in my memory more strongly than others doesn't mean that I "care about identifying preferred recordings."

I have no idea why you feel compelled to convince me that I secretly agree with you but refuse to admit it. There is no "cognitive dissonance" in my view of the subject. My personal experience is that individual reviews have no correlation with my reaction to a recording. I think of the reviews themselves as a form of entertainment that some people enjoy. Music reviews are produced for the same reason that other forms of entertainment are produced, because people are willing to pay for them. Perhaps a statical convergence of reviews has some significance, but I don't find myself too interested because at this point I enjoy hearing a variety of different performances, not the "best."

By now, Hurwitz must be chafing that he is not the center of attention, even on his own thread!

(* chortle *)

[Florestan]

I don't always agree with Hurwitz and sometimes he can be a jerk and/or a smart-arse --- but what I love about him is that, in a world where many people are afraid of even saying "It's a fine day today!" for fear they could offend someone somewhere, he has the courage of expressing his convictions. Also, his passion for, and dedication to, "classical" music is infectious and commendable. YMMV.

[Gurn Blanston]

The fact that some recordings lodge themselves in my memory more strongly than others doesn't mean that I "care about identifying preferred recordings."

I have no idea why you feel compelled to convince me that I secretly agree with you but refuse to admit it. There is no "cognitive dissonance" in my view of the subject. My personal experience is that individual reviews have no correlation with my reaction to a recording. I think of the reviews themselves as a form of entertainment that some people enjoy. Music reviews are produced for the same reason that other forms of entertainment are produced, because people are willing to pay for them. Perhaps a statical convergence of reviews has some significance, but I don't find myself too interested because at this point I enjoy hearing a variety of different performances, not the "best."

By now, Hurwitz must be chafing that he is not the center of attention, even on his own thread!

Ditto. You have nicely worded my precise opinion. In 30 years I can't recall a single instance of buying an album because a reviewer liked it. Still,  I might very well have enjoyed reading the review,  maybe I even learned something from it.  🤔

🤠😎

[Madiel]

In 30 years I can't recall a single instance of buying an album because a reviewer liked it.

Neither can I.

It's fascinating how some people think the only possible use of a review is to totally supplant one's own capacity to form an opinion.

[Florestan]

In 30 years I can't recall a single instance of buying an album because a reviewer liked it.

Neither can I.

Well, yesterday I got this:



only because the conductor is Romanian. 

Then I read a glowing review of this:



("the best thing Sutherland and Bonynge ever did together")

and got it too.

So, there it is: at least one instance of a GMGer getting a recording because a reviewer liked it. Your cases are dismissed, gents, sorry. 

[Madiel]

I'm thrilled. Given I was never the one claiming reviews had no value to any person.

Though we'd apparently moved on from that to claiming that some people aren't even interested in their OWN opinions.

Goalposts move fast around here.

[Florestan]

I was never the one claiming reviews had no value to any person.

I know. My personal anecdotic example is on your side. Heck, my own thinking is on your side. 

[Madiel]

I know. My personal anecdotic example is on your side. Heck, my own thinking is on your side. 

Meanwhile we have a large chunk of the forum spontaneously reviewing Schumann piano works to help Harry out!

[Florestan]

Meanwhile we have a large chunk of the forum spontaneously reviewing Schumann piano works to help Harry out!

Love thy neighbor as thyself!

[KevinP]

Love Hurwtiz.

However, one point that I'm not hearing is that there's a big difference between getting a critic's recommendation of a work you are not familiar with and one that you are well versed in.

When you're exploring a new-to-you composer, or genre, era, etc., it's nice to have  recommendations with explanations. I remember when I first started exploring opera. I was still a steelworker at the time, and this was the early days of CDs, when multi-disc sets were super expensive. It was the pre-internet era when I had no one in my life who didn't think I was joking when I mentioned listening to opera. I usually just bought the cheapest ones. Sometimes that didn't work out too badly, but often I ended up with early mono radio broadcasts as my only recording. Some guidance would have been nice as I figured out what I did and didn't like.

On the other hand, critics raving about the latest Brandenburgs or Mozart Requiem...meh. Sometimes they pique my curiosity and I'll bite despite having 11 other renditions, but I end up being impressed only a fraction of those times.

[Madiel]

I did sort of make that point, though I was talking about recordings more than works.

But I agree with you. Reviews are not designed to make people change opinions they already have. They are designed to provide some information to people who are looking for it.

[Florestan]

Reviews are not designed to make people change opinions they already have. They are designed to provide some information to people who are looking for it.

This, in spades.

[Madiel]

I have to amend my answer about not remembering buying something because of a review, if we are talking about a 30 year time period. Because that goes back to before easy internet access, and I used to go to the local classical music shop's annual sale armed with my Penguin Guide.

I mean, I'm still not sure I would say that a purchase was made JUST because of a review. But it was a lot more influential in circumstances where it was difficult to hear for myself. If I went shopping back then at other times of year then I would go through the rigmarole of getting the store staff to put a recording on their headphones so I could have a listen. But the annual sale? There was no time. The Penguin Guide was an important part of whittling down the enormous stack of discs I grabbed down to something affordable. I was still a student after all. Even the culled version of the stack tended to be 200 dollars.