David Hurwitz

[71 dB]

The only work I'd take issue with so far is Finlandia.  Wonderful opening, full of portent, but it then becomes just a tub-thumping potboiler.

I am not a fan of Sibelius even if I am a Finn (I have my own problems with Sibelius), but one needs to consider the circumstances in which Finlandia was written. It is very important piece of music for us Finns. What I learned from Hurwitz is that the composition was used as the national anthem of Biafra during its attempted secession from Nigeria in the late 1960s.

And so easily remedied: Night-Ride and Sunrise, instead.

That is a fine Sibelius work indeed, but I am sure only a small fraction of us Finns have even heard it or knows it exists.

[Roasted Swan]

This kind of list is always impossible to create.  My only thought is if it is going to be a kind of "History of Western Music" thing then perhaps the sequence should be a key work from each era from Renaissance (or Medieval) right up to contemporary.  The list as currently offered seems pretty narrow in terms of historical periods/styles.  This feels more like a "Classical Pops" list (nothing wrong with that per se) rather than really building an overview of CM through the ages....

[71 dB]

This kind of list is always impossible to create.  My only thought is if it is going to be a kind of "History of Western Music" thing then perhaps the sequence should be a key work from each era from Renaissance (or Medieval) right up to contemporary.  The list as currently offered seems pretty narrow in terms of historical periods/styles.  This feels more like a "Classical Pops" list (nothing wrong with that per se) rather than really building an overview of CM through the ages....

It is a "How to build a basic classical music collection" list. It is far from done. I don't know how many works Hurwitz is planning to include on it, but I believe it is several dozens if not 100 works. If a newbie starts to build a basic collection of classical music from scratch, it makes much more sense to start with works such as Beethoven's 5th Symphony rather than say Palestrina's Missa Papae Marcelli or Pärt's Fratres.

When this list has 20 entries, it makes more sense to evaluate how well it tries to covers the cornucopia named classical music.

[71 dB]

After symphonies, concertos and smaller scale orchestral works, Hurwitz moves to vocal music:

10. Handel - Messiah

[Daverz]

I am not a fan of Sibelius even if I am a Finn (I have my own problems with Sibelius), but one needs to consider the circumstances in which Finlandia was written. It is very important piece of music for us Finns. What I learned from Hurwitz is that the composition was used as the national anthem of Biafra during its attempted secession from Nigeria in the late 1960s.

That is a fine Sibelius work indeed, but I am sure only a small fraction of us Finns have even heard it or knows it exists.

Oh, I don't doubt the cultural significance, just how it holds up (for me at least) as a home listening experience. 

How about Tapiola?

[Karl Henning]

Oh, I don't doubt the cultural significance, just how it holds up (for me at least) as a home listening experience. 

How about Tapiola?

Even better.

[SimonNZ]

I try not to post in this thread because I think Hurwitz an utter fool and buffoon, but to the notion of his starter list I'm compelled to say:

The best way to kill a potential interest in classical music is to give someone a homework list of The Canon. And he should know that.

You branch out from the stuff they've already shown an interest in.

[Karl Henning]

The best way to kill a potential interest in classical music is to give someone a homework list of The Canon. And he should know that.

Thank you! 

[hopefullytrusting]

I try not to post in this thread because I think Hurwitz an utter fool and buffoon, but to the notion of his starter list I'm compelled to say:

The best way to kill a potential interest in classical music is to give someone a homework list of The Canon. And he should know that.

You branch out from the stuff they've already shown an interest in.

I know that if I was given his list I likely wouldn't have made it past 3.

My first "true" classical music experience was Mahler's Symphony No. 1 (and given all I was really listening to at the the time was extreme metal - I cannot think of a better composer than Mahler for that crowd).

[Karl Henning]

I know that if I was given his list I likely wouldn't have made it past 3.

My first "true" classical music experience was Mahler's Symphony No. 1 (and given all I was really listening to at the the time was extreme metal - I cannot think of a better composer than Mahler for that crowd).

As Simon observed, the last thing a newcomer needs is a "These are pieces you need to know, to be musically literate" list.

[hopefullytrusting]

As Simon observed, the last thing a newcomer needs is a "These are pieces you need to know, to be musically literate" list.

Additionally, at least for me, Brahms is a composer that it took me time to appreciate.

[Daverz]

As Simon observed, the last thing a newcomer needs is a "These are pieces you need to know, to be musically literate" list.

I was very much interested in that as a new record collector.  I started out with several "building a classical music recording library" books.  Perhaps that's specific to record collecting. 

The question of what will attract listeners initially is different (and IMO rather difficult) question.  I think it can only be done by sampling widely.

I also have a book (Good Music Guide by Neville Garden) that tries to address the question of "if you like this composer you'll probably also like these composers".

https://archive.org/details/goodmusicguide0000gard

[Karl Henning]

I was very much interested in that as a new record collector.  I started out with several "building a classical music recording library" books.  Perhaps that's specific to record collecting. 

The question of what will attract listeners initially is different (and IMO rather difficult) question.  I think it can only be done by sampling widely.

I also have a book (Good Music Guide by Neville Garden) that tries to address the question of "if you like this composer you'll probably also like these composers".

https://archive.org/details/goodmusicguide0000gard

Fair enough. Though if we allow a critic like Hurwitz to wonder whether we really need another (say) Brahms Symphony cycle,  we may likewise wonder what point his list serves.

[Madiel]

Fair enough. Though if we allow a critic like Hurwitz to wonder whether we really need another (say) Brahms Symphony cycle,  we may likewise wonder what point his list serves.

There is a fairly obvious difference between acquiring one recording each of 35 works, and acquiring 35 recordings of the same work.

Indeed almost my entire GMG experience is based on the fact that these two things are not equivalent.

[AnotherSpin]

Here we go again with the attacks on Hurwitz that, to me, seem completely groundless and frankly ridiculous.

Hurwitz's lists were never meant for people who already know serious music. They are aimed at those who are still at the very beginning, who don't yet know what to listen to and genuinely need a guide to point out what's worth paying attention to. The internet is absolutely flooded with exactly this kind of beginner-oriented recommendation: "100 classical pieces you must hear before you die," "50 jazz albums for newcomers," "the 30 best prog-rock records to start with," "top 10 entry-level operas," "where to begin with contemporary classical," and so on. You can find the same thing in every other domain.

In literature you have "50 books everyone should read", etc. In cinema there are Letterboxd's "Film School 101," "1001 Movies You Must See...," or "If you liked The Matrix, watch these 10 cyberpunk films." In healthy eating people share "What to buy if you're just starting to cook real food" and "7-day meal plans for absolute beginners." Fitness offers "Couch to 5K," the "Starting Strength novice program," or "The 10 best bodyweight exercises for people who've never trained." Wine enthusiasts post "Wines under $20 that don't suck" and region-by-region starter packs. Even niche hobbies such as fountain pens or mechanical keyboards come with "beginner buying guides" and "don't make these first-timer mistakes" lists.

People, by nature, are lazy about research, and often lack confidence when entering an unfamiliar field. The illusion of total freedom ("listen to whatever you want, in any order!") usually ends up with paralysis or sticking to the same three familiar pieces forever. External guidance is not just useful; it is practically essential, and not only for absolute beginners. Even experienced listeners constantly lean on recommendations: "Which recordings of late Beethoven quartets should I try?" "Any recent recordings of Messiaen that blow the old ones away?" "Give me something in the vein of Ligeti's but written in the last ten years." That is exactly what we do on forums, this included.

I would never sit down and just listen to Hurwitz. His own lists aren't on my playlist either. But I still actively use recommendations (including ones I read right here on this forum), despite having listened to serious music for half a century. Because no matter how long you've been in the game, there is always more out there than one lifetime can cover, and a thoughtful pointer from someone else is still gold.

[Florestan]

This kind of list is always impossible to create. 

And yet they are created all the time. 

Additionally, at least for me, Brahms is a composer that it took me time to appreciate.

That's precisely the purpose of such lists: to take the time and make the effort to at least try to appreciate the suggested works.

That's quite funny, actually. GMG is packed full of recommendations, yet when DH makes a set of such recommendations, a coalition is formed (including people who recommend/highly recommend this or that almost on a daily basis) not only against the content of his set, but also against the very idea of recommendation. 

[Madiel]

That's quite funny, actually. GMG is packed full of recommendations, yet when DH makes a set of such recommendations, a coalition is formed (including people who recommend/highly recommend this or that almost on a daily basis) not only against the content of his set, but also against the very idea of recommendation. 

This thread has long been full of irrationality. Which is why I stopped following it a long time ago.

More generally, there is an irrational dislike of people being paid to have views on music or recordings and make recommendations. Because people seem to not believe there's any expertise involved in it. Which is wrong. Not so much for the views themselves but because of the skill involved in giving those views meaningful form.

Hurwitz' video form is of course rather rambling and discursive, in compared to written reviews and criticisms and lists. But I tell you what: I can still tell what he thinks better than I can from a lot of amateurs.

[71 dB]

Here we go again with the attacks on Hurwitz that, to me, seem completely groundless and frankly ridiculous.

The fact that so many hold so negative opinions of Hurwitz makes him more interesting person to me. Given all the "top 7 clarinet concertos" type of lists we have here on GMG, the sentiments that Hurwitz is doing something harmful in compiling a list of works for newbies seems funny. Hurwitz is probably the most harmless "influencer" online! While some other influencers online brainwash people into nasty anti-intellectual ideologies, Hurwitz makes people interested of Alessandro Scarlatti. The horror!   

I enjoy watching his videos. He is like the cheerful uncle who has strong opinions about things, but doesn't mind disagreements. His mannerisms are funny and his "I can do whatever I want with my own Youtube channel" -attitude amuses me, because he is right. If you disagree with him then make your own Youtube channel and express your own opinions! My problem with Hurwitz is the amount of content he produces. It would be very taxing to watch it all...  However, that's my problem, not his.

[SimonNZ]

The fact that so many hold so negative opinions of Hurwitz makes him more interesting person to me. Given all the "top 7 clarinet concertos" type of lists we have here on GMG, the sentiments that Hurwitz is doing something harmful in compiling a list of works for newbies seems funny.

I assumed the lists we make here were for other GMGers to bicker over. Like we're guys at the bar arguing over which tracks to leave off the White Album to make it a single disc.

If newbies get something out of that, fine, but we're not giving anyone homework.

[71 dB]

If newbies get something out of that, fine, but we're not giving anyone homework.

If a newbie feels listening to Beethoven's fifth symphony is homework then maybe it is time to quit and return to listening Taylor Swift or whatever it is that excites them.