Arrau Beethoven Sonatas

[josephine85]

Not sure which thread to post this question in, it is bound to have been covered in an earlier thread. But forgive me, I cannot find it. Please moderate this post to the appropriate place if it is not well placed here.

Wikipedia states that Arrau recorded the complete Beethoven sonatas no less than three times. I have only been able to find recordings his 60s cycle, but a former teacher said that Arrau did a set in the 80s as well. Is that latter set out of print? I have searched the amazon-sites up and down with no results.
And those of you lucky out there who has had the opportunity to listen to both, which set do you prefer?

[Jay F]

Not sure which thread to post this question in, it is bound to have been covered in an earlier thread. But forgive me, I cannot find it. Please moderate this post to the appropriate place if it is not well placed here.

Wikipedia states that Arrau recorded the complete Beethoven sonatas no less than three times. I have only been able to find recordings his 60s cycle, but a former teacher said that Arrau did a set in the 80s as well. Is that latter set out of print? I have searched the amazon-sites up and down with no results.
And those of you lucky out there who has had the opportunity to listen to both, which set do you prefer?

An Amazon reviewer identifies this one as being from the 1980s. Very expensive, though. http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00007L64T/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

[Holden]

Array recorded LvB sonatas (but not all of them) for EMI in the 50s. This is probably where Wikipedia gets its 'third' cycle from

[Mandryka]

And those of you lucky out there who has had the opportunity to listen to both, which set do you prefer?

It is too hard to answer this, apart from reporting anecdotally that I listened to the final recording of the Hammerklavier last month and I thought it was enjoyable.

The final set is beautifully recorded and probably the interpretations reflect his most considered view of the music. The style is often more reflective  than the earlier sets, tempos are slower, and some people find this isn't quite in line with how they imagine Beethoven ought to sound.  The 1950s recordings for EMI are probably the most conventional Beethoven style of the three.

The middle set probably represents a good compromise, as it were.

[Jo498]

The review linked by Jay F says that the "Moonlight" and Hammerklavier were not re-recorded in the 1980s, so for the set the 60s Philips recordings were used...
(I have never heard any of the "late" Arrau recordings and as they are oop and very expensive, I am not very likely to ever listen to them. Arrau's legacy is rather poorly treated by universal; most of his Brahms and Schumann solo recordings (mostly 70s) has been oop for ages.)

[Mandryka]

The review linked by Jay F says that the "Moonlight" and Hammerklavier were not re-recorded in the 1980s, so for the set the 60s Philips recordings were used...
(I have never heard any of the "late" Arrau recordings and as they are oop and very expensive, I am not very likely to ever listen to them. Arrau's legacy is rather poorly treated by universal; most of his Brahms and Schumann solo recordings (mostly 70s) has been oop for ages.)

Thanks, I never realised, and it turns out you're right about op 106. The one I enjoyed must have been from 1963!

[Jo498]

I am not through with the 1960s Arrau cycle but the op.106 is one I had had before the box as a single and I found it more impressive than most of his other Beethoven. (Among other things he is comparably fast here whereas I find e.g. his Waldstein fairly lethargic.)

[Mandryka]

I am not through with the 1960s Arrau cycle but the op.106 is one I had had before the box as a single and I found it more impressive than most of his other Beethoven. (Among other things he is comparably fast here whereas I find e.g. his Waldstein fairly lethargic.)

The Waldstein in the first movement -- the way Arrau manages the climax -- there's one recording which is very impressive , and I think it's the 1960. It's an interesting one to think about, that first movement, because it's so hard to pull off for everyone, with its interminable repetition. I don't know if anyone makes it work for me on a modern piano -- on a percussive fortepiano it's a different thing altogether.

[amw]

Arrau's 106 (the philips one) has a very good fugue and is otherwise not my thing at all. Too slow and "majestic" for the most part, do not want. /sorry

His cycle is probably pretty good though I always think of him as more of a romanticist, Beethoven being an essentially classical composer. Anyway

[prémont]

The EMI "cycle" from the early 1950es doesn´t include more than about a dozen sonatas. I do not know of any collection, which contains the complete dozen.

I have not made systematic A/B tests between the complete 60es cycle and the almost complete 80es cycle, but generally the 80es cycle is broader in conception (some would say more lethargic) than the more dynamic 60es version. I feel a marginal preference for the 60es version.

[Jo498]

Arrau's 106 (the philips one) has a very good fugue and is otherwise not my thing at all. Too slow and "majestic" for the most part, do not want. /sorry

His cycle is probably pretty good though I always think of him as more of a romanticist, Beethoven being an essentially classical composer. Anyway

While I generally agree and find Arrau's Beethoven on the "too romantic side", Arrau is comparably fleet in the first mvmt of op.106, below 11 min including the repeat. With a few exceptions like Schnabel this was the fast end in the 1960s.

My problems are rather that I find him almost completely humorless in the many earlier sonatas that require that feature. He is good in weighty and slow movements but not really my cup of tea elsewhere.

As for the Waldstein, I do not find it repetitive if played at the proper tempo (e.g. Gulda in the first movement). It has a certain motoric quality, without a doubt, but to work this requires a fast and mostly steady tempo. Slow and weighty does not work for me in this piece.

[josephine85]

Whao, you found the Arrau 80s recording, but as you said it was very expensive. Well above my modest budget.
However if the 80s in general can be described as lethargic I think I would go with the 60s anyway. Beethoven to me can be played magestically, but never lethargically.
I own Guldas set from the 60s which as you know is very energetic and sometimes a bit harsh. Some movement thrives on this approach, but I would like to know another side of Beethoven as well. Btw, how does Gould set -incomplete I know- come across? I have only heard his Op106 (which did now completely win me over) and Op28 Pastoral which to me is a wonder!

[Jo498]

Gulda/Amadeo is one of the fastest and most straightforward sets and he can be somewhat "unpoetic" in more lyrical sonatas, e.g. I am not really convinced by his op.109 and 110. But for me he is mandatory in almost all the earlier sonatas up to op.31, in the Waldstein and in opp.106 and 111.

Arrau is more "serious", more romantic and often "majestic". As I said, I am not completely through with the 1960s cycle but it is considered one the "classic" Beethoven sonata recordings and certainly worth a try. (It should also be available in a rather affordable box around 40 EUR, or so. The 1980s recordings are probably also interesting but extremely expensive.)

Gould is provocative and inconsistent, in Beethoven maybe more than anywhere else. Some hate his Beethoven (Todd put him in the "bottom tier"). My favorite Beethoven recordings by Gould are not sonatas but the variations opp.34,35 and WoO 80, bagatelles and the first two piano concertos, all of which are among my favorite recordings of these works.
The sonatas range from absurdly fast (e.g. op.109, parts of op.10) to absurdly slow and "stiff" (Appassionata). I would have to re-listen to some of them but I find a few of them quite fascinating, especially op.10 and op.31, maybe also op. 28 and op.110. But even these might be more for "Gould fans" than general recommendations.
The op.106 is an "unofficial" recording from Canadian Radio or so (I have heard it twice or so years ago but do not know it well, as I remember it, it is among the interesting but for me not quite convincing ones.)

[kishnevi]

Gould's recordings of the early sonatas feature vocalizing and humming that is even by Gould standards loud and intrusive, and overwhelmed any musical features of interest. Fortunately, the problem disappears before the Pathetique.

[Jo498]

Gould recorded op.2 fairly late. The earliest recordings are op.109,110,111, followed by (I think) op.10. And so on, so the humming can hardly be strictly correlated to opus number.

[kishnevi]

Gould recorded op.2 fairly late. The earliest recordings are op.109,110,111, followed by (I think) op.10. And so on, so the humming can hardly be strictly correlated to opus number.

The set I have is arranged by opus number. I noticed it on the first two CDs but not the rest.

Or perhaps my ears simply got innured to the humming.

[Mandryka]

Whao, you found the Arrau 80s recording, but as you said it was very expensive. Well above my modest budget.
However if the 80s in general can be described as lethargic I think I would go with the 60s anyway. Beethoven to me can be played magestically, but never lethargically.
I own Guldas set from the 60s which as you know is very energetic and sometimes a bit harsh. Some movement thrives on this approach, but I would like to know another side of Beethoven as well. Btw, how does Gould set -incomplete I know- come across? I have only heard his Op106 (which did now completely win me over) and Op28 Pastoral which to me is a wonder!

Gould is interesting in op 2 and op 10 precisely for the comedy which Jo found lacking in Arrau.

There are some really special things, like the adagio of op 2/3. What I like most about  Gould there is that even though the tempos are extremely broad (the broadest on record as far as I know), there's no "spiritual" feeling like you get with Gilels, Richter, Arrau etc. There's a sense of humour in the performance, it's got a twinkle in its eye, it's moody in a young way. He stomps a bit, kicks off, cries, laughs. Beethoven as teenager. Towards the end the music making is so confidential you feel as though you're eavesdropping.

Gould's detached touch is strange, and annoying I think.

I listened to him play op 111 a few weeks ago and thought it was dreadful. Op 110 much better. I agree the pastoral is good, but everyone's good in the pastoral. I seem to remember he was good in op 14/1 and maybe the op 31s - I don't know the middle sonatas very well. The best late Beethoven I've heard from him is op 126.

[Wakefield]

Grotesque is a word I have frequently used about Gould's Beethoven.

I have always loved his Bach, but I can't stand his Beethoven because I don't see any kind of emotional connection between him and the music.

[Jo498]

Gould's Beethoven is both among the slowest (most of op.2, Appassionata, the unofficial op.106 is also very slow in the first movement, like 11 min WITHOUT the repeat - note that above amw finds 11 WITH repeat slow...) and the fastest (op.10/1 and 3, op.13, first movement of the "Moonlight", some of op.31, op.109 and 111) on record.
Sometimes within in the same piece, e.g. the first movement of op.10/3 is extremely fast (and as Gould is not playing any repeats, it is over very quickly) but the slow movement is fairly slow (if probably not the slowest one can find).
And of course he is almost always playing in his staccato detached way which can be both revealing and annoying.

There are all kinds of remarks by Gould about Beethoven on record, how he supposedly hated most middle period (but why play the Liszt arrangement of the 5th symphony then?) and loved some early and late Beethoven. For me it is hard to speculate which of those remarks are merely flippant and which ones really tell about his emotional connection with the music (or lack thereof).

I was imprinted on that variation disc, maybe that's why I like it so much but here it seems that Gould really cared about at least opp. 34 and 35. They are all fairly slow as well but I still find them fascinating.

[josephine85]

Goulds name has come up up a lot here in this thread that was originally created for Arrau. Not that I mind, because I think he is very interesting. Regardless if you have a positive or negative view of him - or rather his music - he always seems to create a discussion, which I think is great! I could not see a discussion starting with Arraus Beethoven and be overtaken by a discussion about Brendel
This led me to listen to a few other samples of Goulds Beethoven Sonatas,  Op27 No1 and by the spooky (2:nd?) movement I was spellbound! Now I know that some people dedicate their lives to his persona and music and I don't want to become one of them. But I have to admit that I never have been captivated by a Beethoven Sonata that way before.
Now have to get both Goulds and Arraus set... Oh Beethoven, why did you have to compose music that can be interpreted in so many ways!