What is the 'composer's intention?'

[Monsieur Croche]

I also say you can't get humour literally "just from the notes", and in fact Monsieur Croche is now arguing against his own previous position about how people draw meaning from music despite there being no inherent communication in it.

I say you can get humor "just from the notes" and you don't. Big whup.

Humor from "just the notes" is something inherently non-specific but still 'funny' about how a piece goes. I don't see a conflict with anything I've said, going out of my way to dully repeat, 'Non-literal' as it pertains to music.

Chicago Symphony Center ~ seating, 2,500
Stravinsky conducting the suite [orchestral only] of his Pulcinella. There is a brief libretto of this ballet suite in the program, though I doubt all the audience read it. Some present are completely unfamiliar with the piece, and are there more for the event of Stravinsky being present.

The Composer/conductor: back to the audience [i.e. he cannot mug or 'cue' the audience in any way];
players in standard seating onstage;
house, sold out standing room only, 2,500 and maybe a few more....

Through the course of the piece, with "Notes Only," there were a number of times during the performance of a ripple of audible laughter, the audience, 2,500 of'em, all laughing at the same time as prompted by something that had just happened "with the notes only."

Explain.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I just find it rather useless for all parties involved to continue to argue a point that neither is willing to accept hence why I'm yawning like crazy right now. You're better off with a brick wall.

P.S. I already added to this thread a page or two ago.

Well, you go right back to sleep and let the rest of us discuss this as we will. If we choose to be useless, that's our prerogative. I'm not the one going around telling other people how bored I am.

[Monsieur Croche]

Wake me when it's over...

Dude, you need to take a nap. Get that needed rest. 

[Mirror Image]

Well, you go right back to sleep and let the rest of us discuss this as we will. If we choose to be useless, that's our prerogative. I'm not the one going around telling other people how bored I am.

Jesus...would you just lighten up. Is everything a battle with you? I'm joking around here.

Anyway, I think Debussy said it best when he said: "There's no need either for music to make people think! ... It would be enough if music could make people listen."

As I stated in another thread, people are going to draw what they want from music despite whatever intentions were set forth from the composer. That's just the very nature of music. It will continue to be a mystery why Beethoven did the things he did in his late SQs or why Schoenberg developed his own system of composition. The music is what stands out perfectly clear on its own. Everything else is merely superfluous and arbitrary.

[Mirror Image]

Dude, you need to take a nap. Get that needed rest. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Jesus...would you just lighten up. Is everything a battle with you? I'm joking around here.

And why don't you for once in your life accept that some people are actually interested in ideas, and they're sick of your constant insults any time a comment goes beyond your little comfort zone? You do this all the time, and everyone has to walk on eggshells around you because you're always ready to get into your little snits. And I'm not joking around here.

[Mirror Image]

And why don't you for once in your life accept that some people are actually interested in ideas, and they're sick of your constant insults any time a comment goes beyond your little comfort zone? You do this all the time, and everyone has to walk on eggshells around you because you're always ready to get into your little snits. And I'm not joking around here.

Haha...walking on eggshells? Please, just stop. You're the only one who's insulting anyone. I'm all for discussing ideas, but this thread isn't going anywhere, which is not surprising because it's merely a point vs. point argument with no let up on either side and, which, ultimately, results in a dead-end.

P.S. If you feel that strongly about me, then there's always the ignore function. You should take advantage of it.

[Madiel]

I say you can get humor "just from the notes" and you don't. Big whup.

Humor from "just the notes" is something inherently non-specific but still 'funny' about how a piece goes. I don't see a conflict with anything I've said, going out of my way to dully repeat, 'Non-literal' as it pertains to music.

It does in fact contradict your more absolute moments.

Again, the problem is that you have moments where you just don't see the middle ground. You say something about how there simply isn't any meaning being communicated, and when someone objects to that, you think they're advocating for the kind of meaning that you can nail down with words.

Claims about humour are particularly noteworthy to me, because it was me who talked to you about the humour in Haydn's work. I put it to you that Haydn tried to make people laugh. This was precisely because you appeared to be denying any notion of composers having intent to achieve anything beyond notating pitch, duration and volume.

You are now turning around and presenting my own argument to me.  When I talked about the humour, you were all about the notes. Now that I talk about "just the notes" (not something I actually believe, it was just a test), you're talking about the humour.

In short, it seems that whatever some people say, you'll say the opposite.

[Madiel]

I'm joking around here.

What you are actually doing is belittling other people's discussion.

I can understand the discussion is frustrating and not to your liking, but it really isn't helpful when your contribution is to tell other people they ought not to discuss something on the grounds you don't find the discussion entertaining.

So you're bored. And? What are we supposed to do about that? People aren't discussing for your benefit, they're having a discussion for their own benefit.

If the thread isn't to your liking, a better solution is to go elsewhere, or to steer the discussion in a direction you find more interesting by making actual, concrete contributions.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Haha...walking on eggshells? Please, just stop. You're the only one who's insulting anyone. I'm all for discussing ideas, but this thread isn't going anywhere, which is not surprising because it's merely a point vs. point argument with no let up on either side and, which, ultimately, results in a dead-end.

P.S. If you feel that strongly about me, then there's always the ignore function. You should take advantage of it.

Take advantage of it yourself. You're the only one here who's actively trying to derail the discussion.

[Mirror Image]

What you are actually doing is belittling other people's discussion.

I can understand the discussion is frustrating and not to your liking, but it really isn't helpful when your contribution is to tell other people they ought not to discuss something on the grounds you don't find the discussion entertaining. People aren't discussing for your benefit, they're discussion for their own benefit. If the thread isn't to your liking, a better solution is to go elsewhere.

I'm making light of a discussion that's already headed into derailment. I'm certainly not belittling anyone.

So you don't agree that you're merely arguing a point and that Monsieur Croche is arguing a point which both of you will never see eye-to-eye? If you call this kind of debasing conversation stimulating, then knock yourself out.

As a contributing member to this forum, I have every right to post on this thread as you do, so going elsewhere is not really a prerogative at this juncture nor is it your right to suggest I leave.

[(poco) Sforzando]

As a contributing member to this forum, I have every right to post on this thread as you do, so going elsewhere is not really a prerogative at this juncture nor is it your right to suggest I leave.

Right. But you're ready to tell other people to take a hike: "P.S. If you feel that strongly about me, then there's always the ignore function. You should take advantage of it."

[Madiel]

As a contributing member to this forum, I have every right to post on this thread as you do, so going elsewhere is not really a prerogative at this juncture nor is it your right to suggest I leave.

You have the "right" to post, but I don't?  Okay then!

I'm suggesting it for your own benefit. If you want to stay here and be bored... knock yourself out!

[Mirror Image]

Right. But you're ready to tell other people to take a hike: "P.S. If you feel that strongly about me, then there's always the ignore function. You should take advantage of it."

You're putting words into my mouth, Sforzando. I was just telling you if you don't like my posts and what I have said thus far, then it's quite easy for you to ignore my posts hence why I suggested the ignore function.

[Mirror Image]

You have the "right" to post, but I don't?  Okay then!

I'm suggesting it for your own benefit. If you want to stay here and be bored... knock yourself out!

I never stated that you didn't have a right to post. Where did this come from? I actually find it amusing to read the comments made over the past couple of pages between you and Croche, because you two guys won't back down for nothing.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You're putting words into my mouth, Sforzando. I was just telling you if you don't like my posts and what I have said thus far, then it's quite easy for you to ignore my posts hence why I suggested the ignore function.

And somehow Mr. Orfeo has reached the same conclusion as I: "What you are actually doing is belittling other people's discussion." How can this be if I'm simply putting words into your mouth? Has anyone else on this thread said anything like, "Wake me when it's over" or "I see a lockdown coming"? Look in the mirror, Image.

[Mirror Image]

And somehow Mr. Orfeo has reached the same conclusion as I: "What you are actually doing is belittling other people's discussion." How can this be if I'm simply putting words into your mouth? Has anyone else on this thread said anything like, "Wake me when it's over" or "I see a lockdown coming"? Look in the mirror, Image.

I'm only stating what inevitably will happen and I'll be glad when it does because there's no point two people arguing over points that they're not going to budge on. Why don't we just lace you guys up and throw you into a boxing ring? Now, that would be entertaining.

(*munches popcorn*)

[Madiel]

I never stated that you didn't have a right to post. Where did this come from?

Sorry, let me be more precise. I apparently don't have the "right" to post whatever I want, because if what I want to post is a suggestion to you that you might want to take a different course of action, this is a problem.

Whereas you presumably assert the right to post whatever you want.

As far myself and Monsieur Croche goes, I occasionally have hope of changing his mind precisely because I'm not trying to reverse his position. I'm arguing neither for wholesale acceptance of all extramusical things nor wholesale dismissal of them all.

But half the time I'm not writing for the sake of Monsieur Croche. It's quite clear that Monsieur Croche is not the only person who reads my posts. When Donald Trump and Ted Cruz stand on a podium and address each other, do you think they're actually doing it to change each other's minds? Me neither. They're actually seeking to persuade those who are listening.

Well, the ones who haven't yawned and switched channels. Maybe just the ones who reach for the popcorn.

[Mirror Image]

If arguing a point that neither one of you are going to understand and accept, then please, by all means, proceed. I'm sorry to have interrupted.

[Madiel]

If arguing a point that neither one of you are going to understand and accept, then please, by all means, proceed. I'm sorry to have interrupted.

My own boredom with the process exceeds your own. I'm off to the gym, where I predict they will select music with the "intent" of getting people "pumped up" and I will hate it because I need to be cool, calm and collected to do that kind of stuff.