What is the 'composer's intention?'

[Mirror Image]

The composer Robert Simpson, who wrote a very good book on Bruckner that I'm too lazy to pull down from my shelf and copy from, described the middle section of the scherzo from IX as a nightmarish vision, creepy crawly things skittering about. I find it delicate and charming.

Well, there you go.

[Monsieur Croche]

[Re: "Intent."] ...but something a lot more specific than "I just felt the need to put some notes down".

I think there is a tremendous amount of over-elaboration about and on this subject.

"I just felt the need to put some notes down." can be an impulse entirely intimate and personal. If the composer has accepted a commission contract, that is still in the realm of "feel the need to put some notes down." Whether from the interior or via accepting a commission, the intent is "to put some notes down," period. I think that is all any listener needs "to know."

I think this apocryphal story pretty much explains why I get more than irritated when the listener gets even a little bit preoccupied with 'how the composer makes/made it expressive," that expressive either specific or more general, and that preoccupation becomes a near to scratching to draw blood to get inside the composer's brain [that is just rude, and not nice ]:

Instrumental music student, playing a piece during a lesson, to their teacher.
"I wonder what he was thinking about when he wrote this passage."
Instrumental teacher:
"Never mind that, I want to know what you're thinking when you play it."

Change the roles to Composer / listener:

Listener, to composer.
"I wonder what you were thinking about when you wrote this passage."
Composer:
"Never mind that, I want to know what you're thinking when you hear it."

Something like that...

EDIT ADD:
and something like this:

[(poco) Sforzando]

A composer may have all kinds of intents that are strictly within the musical realm, without reference to a program, especially if it's a piece of instrumental music. (Again, and pace our old friend James, I think that music involving a text works in somewhat different ways.) He may be interested in expanding the musical language, or in taking up a challenge from a previous composer, or in handling his instruments in an entirely new way. When Beethoven wrote the Appassionata, he used the full compass of his available keyboard with greater violence and intensity than anyone before him; in the later sonatas, when the piano had a wider range yet, he took advantage of the increasing degree of sonorities. When he wrote the Eroica, whatever he may have thought about Napoleon or heroism in general, I think it fair to say that he had a dominant interest in enlarging musical time beyond anything heard before; any number of examples can be used to show how the first movement especially radically alters the scope of musical time and opens the door to the innovations of Bruckner and Mahler. When he wrote the C# minor quartet, the interest he took in weighting the music towards the finale (which first occurred perhaps in the 5th symphony), led him to place the primary sonata form movement at the end of the work instead of the beginning. I think these are all legitimate ways of describing a composer's goal or intent, without getting bogged down in "I just kinda sorta felt like putting some notes down" or "I'm trying to use music to express something pictorial."

[amw]

The composer Robert Simpson, who wrote a very good book on Bruckner that I'm too lazy to pull down from my shelf and copy from, described the middle section of the scherzo from IX as a nightmarish vision, creepy crawly things skittering about. I find it delicate and charming.

Off topic but:

A lot of musicologists have told me a theme in that middle section is based on Handel's Hallelujah Chorus. I have never once heard it myself, and anyway the mood is so different that a mere similarity in notes wouldn't seem to be enough to make the comparison.

Similarly I have never been able to pick out the reference back to the Seventh Symphony he supposedly makes in the finale of the Eighth. Also the "Dresden Amen" and the references to the Eighth and Seventh symphonies in the slow movement of the ninth are clear enough, so Bruckner evidently wanted his references to be clear and noticeable.

The thing when composers make references is that the intent is (almost) always clearly noticeable in the music without resorting to analysis or supplementary text. Someone mentioned the Schumann Fantasie—even if you've never heard Beethoven's An die ferne Geliebte, you know something is being referenced by the way the music sets off the quote (this is particularly the case if one uses the autograph ending of the piece). I can think of many other cases though.

A composer may have all kinds of intents that are strictly within the musical realm, without reference to a program, especially if it's a piece of instrumental music. (Again, and pace our old friend James, I think that music involving a text works in somewhat different ways.) He may be interested in expanding the musical language, or in taking up a challenge from a previous composer, or in handling his instruments in an entirely new way. When Beethoven wrote the Appassionata, he used the full compass of his available keyboard with greater violence and intensity than anyone before him; in the later sonatas, when the piano had a wider range yet, he took advantage of the increasing degree of sonorities. When he wrote the Eroica, whatever he may have thought about Napoleon or heroism in general, I think it fair to say that he had a dominant interest in enlarging musical time beyond anything heard before; any number of examples can be used to show how the first movement especially radically alters the scope of musical time and opens the door to the innovations of Bruckner and Mahler. When he wrote the C# minor quartet, the interest he took in weighting the music towards the finale (which first occurred perhaps in the 5th symphony), led him to place the primary sonata form movement at the end of the work instead of the beginning. I think these are all legitimate ways of describing a composer's goal or intent, without getting bogged down in "I just kinda sorta felt like putting some notes down" or "I'm trying to use music to express something pictorial."

This is pretty accurate from my point of view. One's initial ideas/"inspiration" may or may not be hermeneutic, but what keeps one interested in continuing to write is usually a musical problem of some kind. One of the arguers said something similar not long ago, but I cannot remember which one.

[Monsieur Croche]

INTENT?

G. F. Handel ~ No, di voi non vo' fidarmi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKnyA3qxUc
from the first half...
~ Messiah, Unto us a child is born
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFBIJgkj_-g
from the second half... ca. 04:00 into the above no, di voi non vo' fidarmi
~ Messiah, All we like sheep
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmeyG5LlFWU

Intent!

[Jo498]

I think this is besides the point. Almost all music (except for recitatives and chorales) of Bach's Xmas oratorio is recycled from (mostly) secular cantatas, e.g. the first chorus used to be "Tönet ihr Pauken, erschallet, Trompeten" etc. and the original texts often fit much better. But this only shows that there was some flexibility with the affects. Of course the same kind of music could be used to glorify a prince and to glorify God.
Usually there are still easily recognizable differences between a chorus celebrating something and a funeral march. Handel could use the music of a funeral ode for the first part of Israel in Egypt because this described the plight of the Israelites. But he could not have used the music from "Zadok the Priest" for that part...

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

INTENT?

G. F. Handel ~ No, di voi non vo' fidarmi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKnyA3qxUc
from the first half...
~ Messiah, Unto us a child is born
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFBIJgkj_-g
from the second half... ca. 04:00 into the above no, di voi non vo' fidarmi
~ Messiah, All we like sheep
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmeyG5LlFWU

Intent!

Intent on getting that thing done in 24 days so he can earn a buck! Vivaldi was even more notorious for the way he recycled opera arias.

[Florestan]

it doesn't really matter to me what the composer meant or what their intentions were with this or that work.

But for God´s sake, John, it is exactly because of the composer´s intentions that the work exists in the first place. In some cases they are completely unknowable, in some cases they are obvious, in some other cases they are even specifically left as an exercise to the listener. To disregard them altogether as unimportant and irrelevant strikes me as being indeed dismissive to the composer: "Look, buddy, I don´t know what you tried to do and frankly I don´t give a shit about it. All I care is that I have something to listen to. Just keep them coming and be quiet!"

The logical extreme of this position is that CDs should be released not only without any liner notes (granted, in many cases they are horrible, but that´s another story), but without any reference whatsoever to the composer and performer(s), even without any title and artcover.

[Florestan]

Judging by some positions expressed here, music seems to be the most autistic, solipsistic and egotistical art under the sun.

The composer´s intentions are at best unknowable and at worst irrelevant; the performer´s intentions, ditto, and anyway he shouldn´t have any except doing his best to play the notes; and the listener is free to make whatever he wants of all that . Communication breakdown, nay, communication impossible at all levels.

[Monsieur Croche]

Intent on getting that thing done in 24 days so he can earn a buck! Vivaldi was even more notorious for the way he recycled opera arias.

I'm sure some of those recycled pieces were plucked from his memory... if so, well -- wow.
Deadline or no, and without the more than dubious embroideries of his weeping with joy because he had seen God while writing this segment or that, he did work in a white heat, shaving weeks off the [already amazingly short] time he usually took to compose a cantata.

[James]

But for God´s sake, John, it is exactly because of the composer´s intentions that the work exists in the first place.

In most cases, they intend to get paid so they can survive. Hence, reason for existence.

[Karl Henning]

Bzzzzt! Thank you for playing.

Composers being paid enough for their work to sustain them, is in fact the exception.

Unsurprisingly, your narrow ideologies impair your ability to read facts.

[Florestan]

In most cases, they intend to get paid so they can survive. Hence, reason for existence.

So in most cases music is nothing else than a mean to get some cash in order to survive. "Here´s your symphony, give me my bucks, it was a pleasure doing business with you, hope we can do some more in the future!"

[James]

Of course, it doesn't explain why a person chooses a path/life/career in music to begin with - but it is an obvious reality, and a reason for work getting done. Deadlines & money.

(Again, and pace our old friend James, I think that music involving a text works in somewhat different ways.)

I never denied that layer, it can no doubt add to a deepening perspective, noting the story or the words .. but all I'm saying is that it isn't totally necessary if all one wants to hear is great singing and music. And of course, in a lot of cases as you said earlier that strikes true with a lot people, you're dealing with foreign languages, that many people just don't understand to begin with.

[James]

The composer´s intentions are at best unknowable and at worst irrelevant; the performer´s intentions, ditto, and anyway he shouldn´t have any except doing his best to play the notes; and the listener is free to make whatever he wants of all that . Communication breakdown, nay, communication impossible at all levels.

You can't expect a complete historical autopsy on the part of the listener, nor is that necessary. What the composer leaves behind is all that matters in the end. Everything is there. It is the interpreter's job to do the best with it .. which of course, includes more than just playing the right notes, but understanding it, making it musical and playing it with great feel and sensitivity.

[(poco) Sforzando]

So in most cases music is nothing else than a mean to get some cash in order to survive. "Here´s your symphony, give me my bucks, it was a pleasure doing business with you, hope we can do some more in the future!"

Prior to the Romantic period, that is Beethoven's time, music was indeed often written to order and on deadline, and served purposes that were religious, social, or educational rather than being means of self-expression. Bach was expected to churn out cantatas on a weekly basis and Haydn had to prepare his trios and quartets that served as little more than background music for the soirées of his prince. "The music" at Esterhazy was on a level with the food and the carriages, and Haydn took his board at the servants' table. The fact that we in a post-Romantic age still take delight in this music for its own sake should not obscure the fact that it was not primarily intended (that word again!) as art for art's sake.

[Monsieur Croche]

So in most cases music is nothing else than a mean to get some cash in order to survive. "Here´s your symphony, give me my bucks, it was a pleasure doing business with you, hope we can do some more in the future!"

Just about every piece of classical music you listen to was commissioned:
Written as part of a longer contractual obligation as composer in residence [Bach Cantatas, one a week, for quite a while]
Written by the composer with anticipation of remuneration via an exclusive subscription concert [Mozart piano concerti.]
Even the exception of the allegedly 'mysterious reason' Mozart composed his last three symphonies without their having first been commissioned is not a mystery. He was ill. He composed them to have them ready in advance if someone commissioned a symphony, or again, anticipating that they might be performed in paid subscription concerts.

If not commissioned, pieces were composed to directly sell to a publisher who then sells multiple copies to an amateur market [Beethoven piano sonatas and string quartets, ka-ching, ka-ching.]

Fine and great works which move us are well outside of the mundane machinations of 'the business' and how the business brought the artist to make 'the product.'

Nothing about the fact it is a business, and how the composer makes a living, implies an attitude on the part of the composer off "slap-dash I don't give a flying fig about what I compose or deliver" -- because even composers are not foolish enough to think if they do not deliver other than a fine product that they will be hired again. But yeah, "Nice doing business with you, I'd be pleased if you called me again." -- damned straight 

[Hired: you make and deliver / I pay.] The composer was hired, of course, based on their existing reputation. It is common sense to always deliver your best to ensure you keep getting work in the future, that is a 'doh,' and a 'no-brainer' -- i.e. not exactly rocket science.

Sometimes, intent starts with a commission, a promised fee, and a deadline to deliver.

[Jo498]

But Handel was a fairly rich and independent man in his mid-fifties with health issues when he composed Messiah. He could easily have retired or taken his time. For whatever reason he choose to keep on composing throughout the 1740s, often like on speed and often re-using music (not only his own). (To my knowledge, Messiah is actually a case with very little re-cycled music, the 3 duets or so that were arranged as choruses are about all of it.)

[Karl Henning]

(To my knowledge, Messiah is actually a case with very little re-cycled music, the 3 duets or so that were arranged as choruses are about all of it.)

If my recollection serves (it may not), I read someone putting it thus:  that to whatever degree Messiah "cannibalized" earlier work, once Handel made use of a given patch of music in Messiah, it stayed put there.

[James]

Just about every piece of classical music you listen to was commissioned:
Written as part of a longer contractual obligation as composer in residence [Bach Cantatas, one a week, for quite a while]
Written by the composer with anticipation of remuneration via an exclusive subscription concert [Mozart piano concerti.]
Even the exception of the allegedly 'mysterious reason' Mozart composed his last three symphonies without their having first been commissioned is not a mystery. He was ill. He composed them to have them ready in advance if someone commissioned a symphony, or again, anticipating that they might be performed in paid subscription concerts.

If not commissioned, pieces were composed to directly sell to a publisher who then sells multiple copies to an amateur market [Beethoven piano sonatas and string quartets, ka-ching, ka-ching.]

Fine and great works which move us are well outside of the mundane machinations of 'the business' and how the business brought the artist to make 'the product.'

Nothing about the fact it is a business, and how the composer makes a living, implies an attitude on the part of the composer off "slap-dash I don't give a flying fig about what I compose or deliver" -- because even composers are not foolish enough to think if they do not deliver other than a fine product that they will be hired again. But yeah, "Nice doing business with you, I'd be pleased if you called me again." -- damned straight 

[Hired: you make and deliver / I pay.] The composer was hired, of course, based on their existing reputation. It is common sense to always deliver your best to ensure you keep getting work in the future, that is a 'doh,' and a 'no-brainer' -- i.e. not exactly rocket science.

Sometimes, intent starts with a commission, a promised fee, and a deadline to deliver.

Exactly. Thank you.