Favourite decade of the 20th Century

[James]

I have major faves from all or most of these periods .. so there not one decade here above others.

For instance ..

1900s - Schoenberg, Five Orchestral Pieces
1910s - Stravinsky, The Rite of Spring
1920s - Webern, Symphony op.21
1930s - Bartók, Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta
1940s - Messiaen, End of Time Quartet
1950s - Stockhausen, Gruppen
1960s - Ligeti, Atmosphères
1970s - Dutilleux, Tout un monde lointain
1980s - Gubaidulina, Offertorium
1990s - Boulez, ...explosante-fixe...

[some guy]

The outpouring of silence for the short list of music from the 80s (including from whomever voted for that decade!) was deafening and has inspired me to take another piss into the wind.

Oh, it's fun.

So here's some more stuff to think about alongside James' excellent choice of Bartók's Music for Strings, percussion, and celesta.

More Bartók, to start with. The violin concerto nr. 2, Cantata profana, piano concerto nr. 2, sonata for two pianos and percussion, string quartet nr. 5, Contrasts, Divertimento, and the string quartet nr. 6.

The nineteen thirties could easily be someone's favorite decade on the strength of Bartók alone.

But wait, there's more!! (I should change my pantalones, first, though.)

OK, Stravinsky, why not? The Symphony of Psalms. That's a favorite, no? Perséphone, Jeu de cartes, Dumbarton Oaks concerto, violin concerto. Not bad for one year, and that's only the biggies.

Prokofiev? Sure. Peter and the Wolf and the Romeo and Juliet ballet for starters. The magnificent Semyon Kotko. On the Dnieper. Eugene Onegin, which supplied him with music for numerous other compositions. The original version of the fourth symphony. Two piano concertos, four and five. A violin concerto (2) and a cello concerto (1). Alexander Nevsky and the Cantata for the 20th anniversary of the October Revolution. The first string quartet is from 1930, and the three war sonatas were all started in 1939.

Time to put my waders on. The wind is bound to increase with this next composer.

John Cage. Yeah. Aside from all the more or less unknown compositions from early in that decade, there are some real stunners from the last couple of years--Bacchanale is maybe from 1938, though 1940 is a possibility, too. But that's as may be. The first Imaginary Landscape is from 1939. My sense of the twentieth century, musically, is that it falls into two parts, 1906 (Ives' Unanswered Question) to 1939. And 1939 (Cage's Imaginary Landscape nr. 1) to the present. The First Construction is from 1939, too.

Well, that's enough weather-related evacuation for now. But the thirties, yeah. Full of stuff. Hindemith, Reveultas, Ravel, Kodaly, Krenek, Schoenberg, Villa-Lobos, and of course Mr. Copland.

[The new erato]

Very easy: 1920s. Looking at the list of composers who wrote some of their best works in that decade (Janáček, Ravel, Sibelius, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Bartók, Schönberg, Berg, Nielsen, Fauré, Martinů, Villa-Lobos, Szymanowski, Hindemith, Vaughan Williams, Poulenc, Varèse, Ysaÿe, Rakhmaninov [Three Russian Songs, PC4], Enescu VS3, Gershwin), pretty much all of my favourite composers after Brahms are covered.

I voted (as no 2 in the thread) for the same decade from the same reasonng.

[James]

For instance ..

1900s - Schoenberg, Five Orchestral Pieces
1910s - Stravinsky, The Rite of Spring
1920s - Webern, Symphony op.21
1930s - Bartók, Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta
1940s - Messiaen, End of Time Quartet
1950s - Stockhausen, Gruppen
1960s - Ligeti, Atmosphères
1970s - Dutilleux, Tout un monde lointain
1980s - Gubaidulina, Offertorium
1990s - Boulez, ...explosante-fixe...

Or it could easily have been ..

1900s - Ravel, String Quartet
1910s - Debussy, Préludes
1920s - Stravinsky, Symphonies of Winds
1930s - Bartók, String Quartet No. 6
1940s - Boulez, Piano Sonata No. 2
1950s - Tippett, Piano Concerto
1960s - Stockhausen, Kontakte
1970s - Ligeti, Chamber Concerto
1980s - Birtwistle, Secret Theatre
1990s - Lansky, Dancetracks: Remix

[Karl Henning]

Well, some of my favorite Wuorinen pieces, he wrote in the '80s:

The Mass for the Restoration of St. Luke in the Fields
The Third Piano Concerto
The Trio for Bass Instruments
Five: Concerto for Amplified Cello and Orchestra

And two pieces which I've not yet heard, but am keen to:

Machault Mon Chou
Movers and Shakers

Louis Andriessen wrote De snelheid in the '80s.

I think the '80s was a strong time, too, for Steve Reich, when he wrote The Desert Music and Tehillim.

Should I go on?

[James]

Or it could easily have been ..

1900s - Ravel, String Quartet
1910s - Debussy, Préludes
1920s - Stravinsky, Symphonies of Winds
1930s - Bartók, String Quartet No. 6
1940s - Boulez, Piano Sonata No. 2
1950s - Tippett, Piano Concerto
1960s - Stockhausen, Kontakte
1970s - Ligeti, Chamber Concerto
1980s - Birtwistle, Secret Theatre
1990s - Lansky, Dancetracks: Remix

Or ..

1900s - Webern, Passacaglia op.1
1910s - Holst, The Planets
1920s - Bartók, Piano Concerto No. 1
1930s - Berg, Violin Concerto
1940s - Boulez, Piano Sonata No. 1
1950s - Stravinsky, Agon
1960s - Stockhausen, Hymnen
1970s - Ligeti, Melodien
1980s - Viñao, Son Entero
1990s - Birtwistle, Panic

[James]

...

1900s - Ravel, Jeux d'eau
1910s - Bartók, Bluebeard's Castle
1920s - Berg, Chamber Concerto
1930s - Webern, String Quartet op.28
1940s - Stravinsky, Mass
1950s - Dutilleux, Symphony No. 2
1960s - Messiaen, Et expecto
1970s - Nancarrow, Study 41
1980s - Harvey, Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco
1990s - Stockhausen, Electronic Music with Sound Scenes of Friday from Light

[James]

...

1900s - Schoenberg, Chamber Symphony No. 1
1910s - Stravinsky, The Soldier's Tale
1920s - Webern, Five Movements for String Orchestra
1930s - Rodrigo, Concierto de Aranjuez
1940s - Strauss, Four Last Songs
1950s - Stockhausen, Klavierstücke I-XI
1960s - Nancarrow, Study 37
1970s - Carlos, Switched-On Brandenburgs
1980s - Schwantner, Music of Amber
1990s - Dutilleux, The Shadows of Time

[Mirror Image]

...

1900s - Schoenberg, Chamber Symphony No. 1
1910s - Stravinsky, The Soldier's Tale
1920s - Webern, Five Movements for String Orchestra
1930s - Rodrigo, Concierto de Aranjuez
1940s - Strauss, Four Last Songs
1950s - Stockhausen, Klavierstücke I-XI
1960s - Nancarrow, Study 37
1970s - Carlos, Switched-On Brandenburgs
1980s - Schwantner, Music of Amber
1990s - Dutilleux, The Shadows of Time

Zzzzz.....okay we get your point.

[some guy]

Zzzzz.....okay we get your point.

Ah, Mirror. Still the same urbane and amiable Mirror as ever, eh?

What if we were to go onto your latest cookie cutter poll (Villa Lobos, zzzzz) and make the same point?

Probably piss you off, eh? If so, why're you doing it yourself?

Anyway, for thread duty, which, since Mirror is already asleep, it should be safe to do, when are we gonna get some more love for the forties and nineties. Sure, there was that war thing going on in the forties, but there were wars going on all over the place (i.e., the world) in the 19th and 18th centuries, too, didn't seem to stop anyone writing some really smashing music, did it?

Some of your (you all) favorite music was written while Napoleon was busy causing mayhem in as much of the world as he possibly could.

[Mirror Image]

Ah, Mirror. Still the same urbane and amiable Mirror as ever, eh?

What if we were to go onto your latest cookie cutter poll (Villa Lobos, zzzzz) and make the same point?

Probably piss you off, eh? If so, why're you doing it yourself?

Anyway, for thread duty, which, since Mirror is already asleep, it should be safe to do, when are we gonna get some more love for the forties and nineties. Sure, there was that war thing going on in the forties, but there were wars going on all over the place (i.e., the world) in the 19th and 18th centuries, too, didn't seem to stop anyone writing some really smashing music, did it?

Some of your (you all) favorite music was written while Napoleon was busy causing mayhem in as much of the world as he possibly could.

No, my point was James said he liked music from all decades and that he couldn't pick a favorite decade and he continued to make one list after another of favorite works from each decade. His point was made 3-4 posts ago. That's all I'm saying.

Also, I don't really feel like arguing with you about anything, so guess what? I won't.

[some guy]

Well, still no love for the nineties.

When I'm listening to recorded music, I probably listen most often to music from the nineties and the early double aughts. (I think we are still in the era that began in 1939. As usual, eras ignore century boundaries.) When I'm attending live shows, I probably listen most often to music from the past five or six years.

Love is nice.

Anyway, there's some good stuff from Zeilinska and from Bauckholt from the nineties, if you're into that kind of thing.

The nineties was when Karkowski and eRikm really got going.

Yoshihide and the whole Erstwhile crew have many recordings from the nineties and the double aughts. Dhomont and Ferreyra and Groult and Marchetti and Noetinger and Bokanowski and Dumitrescu and Avram were all quite busy in the nineties. Most of Stockhausen's Licht is from the nineties.

Good times, for sure.

If you like music....

[James]

When you look to the greatest musicians and musical compositions of the century this thread quickly becomes an easy endeavor. I would say though, that the 1st half of the century was much more fruitful on a deeper level than the 2nd half (which was patchy in its triumphs, as great talent searched for supposed 'new worlds'). Overall the century isn't that radical when compared to other centuries, more splintered perhaps, but not that radical, mostly failure actually.

[amw]

(I think we are still in the era that began in 1939. As usual, eras ignore century boundaries.)

I'm not sure. I think we're in the era that began in ~1991. The beginnings of eras tend to correspond with moments of great social upheaval. (Maybe we could say 1992 to correspond with the death of John Cage.)

Like you've definitely got one from... I'd say 1945 rather than 1939, up to 1992. And another one from around 1901 to 1945, and yet another from roughly 1848 to 1901, and before that 1780 to 1848-ish and so on.

For the 90s another notable aspect is "movements" turning out to do things other than that which they originally set out to do. You've got electroacousticians like Radigue suddenly writing a lot of instrumental music, spectralism undergoing a double shift away towards more traditional (Grisey/Murail) and more complex (Avram/Dumitrescu), postserialists like Barrett (Richard) starting to incorporate elements of free improvisation, neoromanticism starts drawing on serialism & new complexity (Adès/Benjamin) etc. Not so many new genres, but EAI starts to really take off, as does the Wandelweiser "group", set free by Cage's death. And the other person taking up Cage's ideas in a very different way is Peter Ablinger. There's a lot of splintering, combined with a relaxation of genre norms.

I'm definitely looking forward to Tim Rutherford-Johnson's book on music since 1989, whenever he finishes it (it's been advertised on his website). He seems like one of the best people who could have taken on that job, being one of the most balanced & perceptive writers on contemporary music.

[Dax]

Overall the century isn't that radical when compared to other centuries, more splintered perhaps, but not that radical, mostly failure actually

[knight66]

Additional to the works mentioned for the 1910s

Elektra, Salome, Rosenkavalier, Gurrelieder which stretched right across the decade, Dream of Gerontius, Tosca and Madame Butterfly, Pelleas and Melisande, which had been a decade in the making was finally orchestrated towards the start of the decade. And then there is Ravel's Scheherazade and the Delius Sea Drift and his Mass of Life.

Mike

[Karl Henning]

James's observations are more splintered perhaps, but not that radical, mostly failure actually.

[James]

James's observations are more splintered perhaps, but not that radical, mostly failure actually.

this typical bs says more about you than anything. what i said earlier is largely true and very realistic.

[jochanaan]

this typical bs says more about you than anything. what i said earlier is largely true and very realistic.

When you write music as brilliant as Karl's, then perhaps you have the stature to say something like that to him.  So far I've seen no evidence that you have. -- And I'm not actually arguing with you about which decade is a favorite; in fact, I agree that there is brilliant music from every decade.  As one example, I am very fond of Michael Daugherty's UFO Concerto for Percussion, from 1999.  (Of course, my fondness comes mostly from its being written for Evelyn Glennie, whom I adore with a passion that nearly breaks the First and Second Commandments. )

[some guy]

When you write music as brilliant as Karl's, then perhaps you have the stature to say something like that to him.  So far I've seen no evidence that you have.

I disagree. Statements have to be judged on their own merits, not on the stature of the person saying them. Anyone who can read can evaluate a written statement. Just because the statement was made by a (possibly) non-composer to a composer, just because the commentary is about evaluating music, doesn't mean that only (brilliant) composers can make remarks.

Here's the statement in question, as well as the statement that preceded it, evaluated by looking at the words, not the people:

"this typical bs says more about you than anything. what i said earlier is largely true and very realistic."

"bs" - simply an insult, and an unsubstantiated one as well.

"typical" - an attempt to make the insult credible by claiming that it describes an ongoing series of actions. But the actions' typicality has nothing to do one way or the other with whether the action at hand can be accurately described as bs.

"says more about you than anything" - actually, if the statement being criticized says anything about the sayer, it is that the sayer likes to have fun playing with language. That person's statement is largely made up of the words of an earlier comment, turned around to refer to that sayer, not the music he was criticizing: "James's observations are more splintered perhaps, but not that radical, mostly failure actually." This is an insult, too, be fair, but very much more subtle, clever, and intelligent than a simple "bs."

"what i said earlier is largely true and very realistic" - unsubtantiated assertions. The truth of something is demonstrated by argument and by examples (which should probably be typical for maximum effect), not by simply asserting that the something is true. As for "very," that is very like the "typical" from earlier, an attempt to validate an empty assertion, only this time it is with a simple intensifier.

These particular rhetorical tactics, ironically enough, do indeed say more about the person saying them than about the ostensible topic. That is, relying on those tactics reveals an intellectual laziness, a facile willingness to simply claim that the truth of whatever this person says is self-evident and inarguable.

It's not.

There, jochanaan. You see? If James were ten times the (brilliant) composer that Karl is, this statement of his would still be just as empty and valueless. It's not the sayer's stature that counts, it's the actual words and what they actually are doing.